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Observations/Suggestions Long time on again off again vet.

Discussion in 'Wishlist Requests' started by Lathiari, May 13, 2020.

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  1. Lathiari

    Lathiari Avatar

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    I backed this game when the kickstarter first began long long ago.. I have played it off and on over many releases with long breaks in between.. steam currently says I have spent 507 hours in the game as of writing this. I started playing again seriously about a month ago and have taken my character from lv 75 to 101 in that time. Along the way I have had a few thoughts about the game and would like to share them below. Please keep in mind I am in NO way trying to beat this game up.. I like this game.. I like it allot and I want to see it get better, this is just an attempt to help that along.

    PERFORMANCE: Let's face it, the performance in this game is still abysmal compared to similar titles with similar or better visual fidelity. It's easy to just blame unity for this.. but I have a feeling it's not all unity's fault and getting this engine running well should definitely be high on the developmental priority list. (not assuming it isn't just stating the obvious!) I want to see this game running better.. there is really no other way to say it.. I have a very capable machine and the game can still go sub 30 in some zones. My current specs are as follows for those curious: R9 3900x 32GB ddr4 3600mhz ram RX 5700 XT 2TB NVME WD black drive.

    USER INTERFACE
    : The user interface... and I can't stress this enough NEEDS a professional overhaul. Catnip needs to hire a UI designer. There is so much information the player needs to keep an eye on during a fight while also trying to keep their eyes on the fight itself. During combat you have glyphs popping up that need to be combo'd by pressing the R key followed by the number of the slot the glyph is in, at best your eyes are watching your bar while darting back and forth between your target, your position in the fight, your HP/MP and your buff/debuff status. This is allot of info to keep an eye on, I am not going to crap on @Chris design for combat here but all of that info needs to be more central to the character in order to efficiently keep an eye on it. There have been some great examples of games that have separate UI elements for combat proc items.. like skills that only activate during a block or something. I don't like watching my hot bar during combat, it makes me feel like I am missing out on the cool fight that is happening. At the very least, maybe look into adding support for custom UI.. let your community build the UI they want, most MMO on the market today offer this and it's honestly not a horrible out for Catnip with regards to hiring a designer.. maybe a shroud player can do it better and it won't cost you a thing.

    COMBAT: This kind of goes hand in hand with what I was saying about the UI but again, I am not going to crap on the combat I don't think it's horrible and it has potential to be great. I haven't been a new player for a long time but the current amount of options in combat (which aren't really.. super well explained in game) is just a bit much. You have a free attack system, you have an auto attack system, you have a locked deck combat bar, you have a free floating random draw bar, you have a combo of the two bar.. you have deck swapping. You have so many systems here that I think only serve to add confusion to the player, couple that with the UI and the balancing act of "pressing R" to create combos/stack glyphs and its a right headache. I feel like you really need to commit to one system, tell us what your combat is.. and make us engage with that product.

    MUSIC: I have no problem with the music that is in this game but for the LOVE OF GOD it needs MORE music. I am so sick of hearing the 5 or 6 music tracks that play in this game. If there is one thing I would suggest it would be that at-least every major city in the game should have a unique melody and then move onto story quest zones, dungeons and other points of interest and do the same. Further, if it's not yet possible owners of POT's should be able to select music as well. My brother owns a dungeon for instance and it drives me crazy when we go into his creepy troll cave and I still hear the cheery log-in screen music.. why can't you let those guys set custom tracks to play in their dungeon? If I log into episode 2 and you are using the same 3 musical tracks I will abandon all hope for that project, say 'AHH you got me good guys!' and hang up my hat.

    NPC VARIETY: You guys have made some real strides in this department but man, I want to see more. Anyone the player spends any significant amount of time engaging with during a quest needs to be a unique NPC.. I was so disappointed for instance when I saw Lord Drupplemouth (SP?) was the exact same "noble" npc as the graff gem mines person. If you can't take the time to at least create unique appearances during the story/virtue lines I think that's a bad look. This is a small thing.. and yes I am being a bit nit picky here but it definitely matters. I am so sick of seeing that dude with the short grey hair the fat body and his robe with the fur on the collar.. we need more NPC's. I think UO had the right idea at least with it's whole randomly generated wardrobe/colors. You don't have to go crazy designing the fodder/everyday life folks but I do believe as previously stated that every NPC the player is going to interact with in a significant matter has to be unique.

    MARKETPLACE/VENDORS: I think the whole player market/sell system is awesome and I won't go crazy and tell you that your game HAS to have an auction house like every other game. What I will tell you however is that going into random POT's and checking EVERY single vendor is a time consuming and BORING process that needs to be streamlined in some fashion without abandoning the original intent as a whole. If I know I want to buy the village house with the blue roof for instance it would be great if I could zone into a POT walk up to a "Trade Broker" or something and tell him what I want followed by him showing me a list of that item for sale in the town, clicking on the one with the price I want would then give me a waypoint to that vendor and I can buy it.. easy peasy. The current system is hard for the seller too.. especially when we have a small player base. I have items sitting on my brothers commission free vendor that just aren't moving because he's parked at the back corner of a POT and we only have maybe 6 words to describe what he is even carrying/why you should click on him. "plzcheckmystuffplz" isn't working. You also need to overhaul certain aspects of this system, players should be able to say for instance "I want to buy 10000 wood" and then their vendor buys that much wood.. it shouldn't care if its a stack of 10 or a stack of 100 or a single log.. you want 10000 wood and you will take that in any quantity. This will make it easier to sell things and you won't have to create 20 billion listings for different stacks... 20 stacks of 5, 10 stacks of 100 3 stacks of 1 etc etc.

    QA TEST INCENTIVE PROGRAM: This is a smaller game, I understand that.. budget and staff are spread thin. Testing is expensive and time consuming.. and people really don't want to do that kind of stuff for free. When playing through the main quest there were a few bugs I happened across very early on in the quest with NPC's or item placement. People just kind of accept this stuff but for NEW players.. they won't be as forgiving. You can't have bugs in the first few quests as you begin the game.. that just looks really bad. I had an idea earlier for a program where you could offer players a quest reset as a "QA Tester" this would give the incentive of getting quest/prod XP but you would have to find a way that makes them engage with the process in a way that's meaningful and of value to you. People would need to be screened for this.. and you could also rotate out the people doing it so that it's not just power gamed do death (Plus you want fresh eyes/variety of types doing it). From spelling errors to location/item naming errors to straight up bugs I think you could squash allot of stuff this way.. even something like a COTO reward which costs the company absolutely nothing to doll out would make sense. Bugs aside, this could also be a great way to solicit feedback regarding the design of things, maybe a quick survey that would pop up after completion "did you enjoy this?" "Tell us why" etc.

    POWER CAPS: I don't understand the current design philosophy behind character progression in this game. Currently you have like... the upper tier of players who are in their mid/high 100's with dozens upon dozens of GM or higher skills. Then you have everyone else.. maybe that person who has played a few hundred hours but still feels like they can't achieve anything meaningful in the game, gets frustrated and quits. My question here is, if you don't set some kind of limit on player power.. who are you designing content for? Are you designing dungeons and boss encounters that can 1 shot anyone but those 120-150 ish adventure level dudes or are you designing stuff for the 75-90'ish folks? I don't want to be misunderstood here, I don't expect anything gained to be taken away from anyone but I don't really understand how you develop fun/meaningful content for every type of player under the current system. My brother for instance spends HOURS running in a circle around trolls in a dungeon of his own design amassing a pool of hundreds of millions of XP points.. and hey.. maybe that is fun for him but the vast majority of players aren't that guy, grinding to that extreme isn't fun for those folks. When you have awesome trailers on steam showing 3 or 4 adventurers having an epic battle against a dragon but then you get in the game play for 60+ hours and are still getting bodied by skeletons.. there is a problem there.

    LOOT: Ok so we have bundles and we have artifacts now.. both of those things are cool. In my opinion artifacts are absolute garbage now for the most part.. as everyone has them and NOBODY with the available gold seems to want to buy them. I am talking bargain basement prices here.. 10k for a ring of fire and no takers, but every vendor you randomly peruse has the same artifacts and they don't want them either. Killing a Cabalist (which is pretty hard for my warrior dude I might add!) and being rewarded with like 100 gold and some random worthless gems does.. not.. feel... good. I don't think the problem is with not getting enough grandiose loot, the dopamine from special gear/bundles is nice.. the problem is with the average loot table as it's completely underwhelming and also discouraging. I think gold tables need to be adjusted drastically.. there are too many monsters that fall into the same 30-40 gp tier.. but this goes back into player power creep and how you design things again. Obviously the guy who can run around and kill super high tier monsters in 30 seconds flat is going to kill your in game economy if everything is dropping decent but at least everyone at the lower end feels like they can amass some wealth for a change.

    These are just my opinions, I know I am not right about everything.. but these are at least my honest thoughts on the game as it stands currently and if any of this.. even one small fragment of it helps in any way.. then it was worth it. Thanks for taking the time to read if you did... and please no TLDR posts.. be cool!

    :D
     
  2. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    I was thinking about power caps earlier today, so I thought I'd chime in.

    Introducing a cap in any form will not go over well, especially for those that have it. However, there could be a way to minimize it's impact. We have two specializations. Why not use that as a mid-cap, meaning allow players who take a specialization in those two trees to be able to infinitely level those two trees if they choose.

    This shouldn't cut off other trees, but it should be harder to level them. Let's say for a non-specialized tree, the amount of XP required is increased by "x" or ".x", so that the two trees that are specialized are normal XP gains, but all others require increased XP amounts.

    I would also argue that a third specialization should be allowed for the abilities tree (DEX, STR, INT), allowing a player to increase on of those trees freely, while making it harder to increase in another tree. This could really push the game to a more focused class based system, without forcing that on anyone - it just makes it harder to be a jack of all trades.

    A fourth specialization could be allowed for the upper trees (armors, weapons). This would mean a total of four specializations, one for the top, two for magic, and one for the abilities.

    If this is too much for anyone's tastes, consider making one specialization for each grouping, for a total of three, or just upping the amount to three total specializations and letting the player decide. I think this would help out with balance, because it's difficult for a a magic user who wants specialization in focus or light armor, for example, but sticks with magic only (like me); as well as for non-magic users who may want to specialize in one school of magic while specializing in an armor/weapon or an ability.

    Personally, making "my" perfect class, I would specialize in light armor, focus, and two schools of magic. I could imagine if I played an archer, I'd want medium armor, dexterity, bow, and one school of magic to be specialized. By allowing me to freely level any skill within a tree I take a specialization in, and making it harder for me to level skills past 100/110/120 without an additional XP requirement can make for a more interesting all around build. And it takes away from endless leveling of any skill any time.

    These could all start at GM (100), or maybe 110 or 120 - and the specialization allowing for beyond that would kick in (for specializations, normal XP; for all others increased XP required). Just a thought.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  3. Violet Ronso

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    I somewhat like the idea of having a cap removed by spec, but I think this would be hard to balance, and the number would need to be revisited (100 in all skills is pretty basic/easy, maybe a 120 for non spec).

    As for the amount of Specs, this one seems very hard IMO. I would love it, don't get me wrong, but all the ideas that have been thrown at these forums have always had some flaws that would force some balancing passes, which would make people very upset. a few examples that come to mind are Ranged + Heavy armor + Tactics could result in some very tanky, VERY hard hitting archers, or some Ranged + Air + Tactics archers. Other setups that sound very strong in my mind (especially for PVP, but could break some balance in PvE, and would result in nerfs for PvE anyways) are stuff like Fire + Sun + Life, or Death + Chaos + Sun (this last one sounds nasty in my head, but real PVPers might tell me I am an idiot and it wouldnt work, but a specced enlightenment with death magic cast at 0.3 seconds per spell with very little drawback at that point sounds strong, just thoerycrafting here). Even the idea of 1-2-1 is super unbalanced, Heavy Armor Spec + Death Magic + Sun Magic + Focus, a heavy armor Death mage with 0 fizzle chance and extra crit chance from his sun spec, many combinations become out of whack at this point and makes some strong builds become even stronger. I know I would have Heavy + Sun + Water + Bard, I would never see any issues fighting anything in PvE, no clue how I could die if I am focused.

    All in all, extra specs = more chances of having op stuff = more chances of something being nerfed = casual players feeling pushed back again = many more players quit. That is how I see it unfortunately, as it has been the circle of Shroud : Nerf, New power, something OP is discovered, Nerf.
     
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  4. Cora Cuz'avich

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    I would probably allow for either two magic or two combat. (As in, you can pick two combat and one magic, or two magic and one combat.) If you're not using magic heavily, you'd probably find being able to take a weapon tree and an armor tree more useful than "getting" to take two magic trees.

    However, would this also result in a rebalance of mob strength? Or, would it (probably more likely) just mean that I would be forced to group up to do even more of the end game content than I already have to?
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2020
  5. Lathiari

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    I think we need to move away from the worry about "making people mad" I see that thrown around allot.. people don't want to change things because it would upset people. The truth is, they would get over it.. and then they would find a new way to power through the new system. Again, I don't think you should take anything away from people.. if you have 800 gm skills awesome, keep them but maybe we make a change to the stacking of skills or just how many you can have active at the exact same time. If you want one character to have every skill in the game at 100 for instance, that is fine but maybe you can only activate 20 of them? I am not a game designer but I do play this game daily and the idea of having a limitless system and designing content around that seems impossible.. I don't want to feel like I have to grind out thousands of hours to enjoy myself in PVE content, I don't think the majority of people want that but the question remains, how do you design dungeons and quests that engage your entire playerbase in a meaningful way when the power gap is so large?

    Think about it this way, episode 2 launches tomorrow.. who can participate? Seriously, who can start the quest? Is it the guy who is lv 120 or the guy who is lv 75? You can't have both of them do the quest and have a great time, you either make it a struggle/impossible for the 75 or you make it a snore fest for the 120. Maybe the answer to this issue is scalable zones? Something akin to elder scrolls where monsters/pve challenges meet the level requirements of the player? At least for story based content I could see that working. It's a complex issue but it's definitely an issue that this game faces.. I firmly believe it needs a solution.
     
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  6. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    Yes, it's all theorycrafting - or as as I've heard said (or said myself)…armchair developing. Some people like "Monday Morning Developing". Whatever your fancy, the point remains the same. I have no idea how little work the devs do, and how hard they work to make it seem they don't. :)

    But your concerns are valid. It requires balance passes. But in the end, if you worked to be a tanky archer, then I just have to figure a way around that. My whole point was to get away from the Jack-of-All Trade archetype. I'm not asking to prevent that, or to pigeon-hole people, just to make it harder to get there. Sorry, just because someone spends 500 hours in East Reach Gap getting millions of XP, I don't consider that "hard", I consider it a testament to one's stamina. However, if we are forced to actually choose a spec, to say, I can pick one armor/weapon specialization (maybe two here), and then 1 magic if I want it, and definitely one ability, then I say that makes for a better character. I myself would pick Light Armor, Death and Air, and Focus. Yes, maybe 120 is a spot where it makes sense to stop regular XP investment outside of those specs. To be clear, if I chose those specs, I could continue to level those skill beyond 120 normally, but if I choose to go Bludgeon (I do for my staff, just for that little bit of extra DPS), then I am going to see my gains exponentially get harder there because I did not spec Bludgeon.

    The whole point is to make different builds viable, so that people don't have to feel like they have to get better elsewhere. Concomitantly, yes these means balance in the form of making my specialization choices mean more for me in terms of power. Balance doesn't have to mean everything is equal; and a tanky archer spec shouldn't be able to have an easy time with someone spec'd differently, especially if the tanky archer is "lacking" in other areas.

    This is all conjecture, and I am of the belief that we are WAY beyond making things better in PvP with all the people running around with billions of XP invested. I am not arguing to take that away from them, and so this is really just chatter. Good for them. They get to enjoy a barren wasteland. :)
     
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  7. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    I'm not advocating gimping your playstyle. I can't find groups to do things normally (everyone was in Control Points or just doing their own thing), and I can't normally tackle most high-end stuff solo. So I'll just assume things will continue to get better for a few while I play something else to pass the time. :) Nevermind the fact that my preferred build is Death and Air, which is useless in most PvE.

    I would imagine just even giving people one more specialization would make things interesting, even for soloing content. Yes, I think it would maybe be unfair to give 3 magic specializations, but I don't know how to code "3, not more than 2 in any level (tactics/magic/abilities)".
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
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  8. Lathiari

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    I have a similar fear about being beyond fixing things.. I am super curious to see what happens if Episode 2 comes out.
     
  9. Cora Cuz'avich

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    My point had more to do with, "when players get too good at things, the fix seems to be giving mobs another 1k health and 200 more damage per hit." I would really love a third and fourth spec, or even just a third. I'm an air/tactics archer, but I'd love to be ranged/air/tactics. I just also see it leading to another round of buffing mobs to a point where I lose even more scenes I can play in.
     
  10. Violet Ronso

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    That is my main concern as well, a casual player like you, who has finally adjusted to the "meta" to be able to do content, and who will inevitably get shafted when Chris goes around "fixing" or "balancing" things, actually, you were probably the #1 person I was thinking about (other notable ones being Fenris, Chatele and Barugon, but Chatele doesn't really play anymore does she?).

    When Chris introduces something to bring the power up, he usually goes with balance passes that will easily be manageable for top end players, those with a lot of time or those who can adapt, but leaves the others in the mud, and every time he does this, more people get discouraged, and end up taking very long breaks, or quitting altogether, because it feels like every time those people reach the goal post, one that the top end players have crossed for a long time now, that same goal post get pushed back further. What happens to the top end players? Nothing, nothing changed for them, they might be hitting slightly weaker, but the were already going through things like butter, but for the other ones, now they can't do something they were finally able to, and they feel like they just stepped on the snake on square 98...

    I would love to see more specs, heck 1 more would open up so many doors to my play style, 2 more would actually make me wonder why I need so many but trust me I would not dislike it, but I fear for the casual players, because they won't like what Chris will do to them.
     
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  11. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    Are you seriously in doubt? Episode 2 is not going to be something like Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn where the game receives a major overhaul and does a complete 180 degree turn to become better. I wouldn't say we are at that level, but certainly more than 90 degrees is required and I do not have any illusions that Episode 2 will not come close to that.
     
  12. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    I agree. I was reading a popular blogger talk about how in EQ2 things at end game have hundreds of millions of XP and how he does millions in damage. That's just...well...that's not fair, EQ2 is big budget and sort of AAA. But I get your point.

    And as for your ranged/air/tactics build, that sounds awesome and is what I'm advocating, to allow people to spread things around to become what they want. But to your point, wouldn't it make the game harder if builds were sort of taken down a bit (let's not say nerf, lets call it re-balancing) without necessarily increasing mob HP? I mean, it's literally what people ask for - for things to be harder/challenging. At least, that's what I discern from some people here, but I could be wrong.
     
  13. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    I agree. I'm not defending Chris, but I got to imagine it's hard to reach any semblance of balance with so many skills/options. Rather than try to please everyone, I wish they'd just focus on content that, to me, would seem easier to do to keep everyone happy. More mob variations, more Tier 6-10 zones, more Overland encounters to tackle. This could be done in a short amount of time. And all the while he could be gathering data to see what is working and what is not and then do a major overhaul. But this piecemeal stuff is constantly "breaking" the game. Meanwhile stuff keeps disappearing from my bags when I move it around in the bank or crafting tables...but that's a rant for a different thread.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
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  14. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    Capping this off (pun intended), I seriously hate that I had to take skills in Fire/Sun and that for them to be useful I had to GM a lot of the skills in those trees which are outside my intended build just so I can have a higher attunement. I would much prefer having my skills be more useful to me and having to work around my limitations rather than going into other trees. As an example, why as a Death Mage can I not somehow crowd control or take over an undead mob? This would get around the obvious limitation of not doing damage to Undead with Death Magic. And making Undead (like Liches) resistant to Air without having some counter-balancing utility skill to work around that limitation is just mind-boggling. Again, forcing me to take Fire/Sun when I don't really want to. Yes, I see the utility of some of the passives there, and I am ok with just GM'ing the trees because that's easy, but to really have any true effect I need to be at 120+ with those skills, and that is not something I want to do.
     
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  15. Violet Ronso

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    Agreed, 2 things I would like to see is a way for Death magic to somehow have a way to work against undead (be it a control undead spell or anything like that), lets hope the new skills have that in consideration when they will come! Note that I do not use death magic, I actually warded against it, but this would still be neat for others, like you!

    The second thing is Spell Penetration. With all the warding, and mage mob's resistance to magic, it would be great to have a way to pierce resistances, be it a way to combo your regular spells to actually add that spell penetration to it, a stance, or a short duration buff, I don't care, but I would love it to actually have some true magic resistance piercing past the few resistance drops you can get right now. Being able to cast a "Piercing Ice Arrow" instead of a regular "Ice Arrow" would really be neat!
     
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  16. Cora Cuz'avich

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    Depends. I don't so much want the current content getting harder. Perfect example is Ravensmoor- when I would farm Torc, I would run around killing undead while waiting for him to respawn. After the last mob rebalance, that became really difficult. I can handle them one at a time, but two or more usually have me retreating pretty quickly. Satyrs in Tartarus are the same, more than one and I really struggle. What I would like is other areas (either new or old rarely visited scenes) to be bumped up somewhere around t6 or t7. Something tougher than say, Crag Foothills, but not quite as tough as Tartarus or Ravensmoor- or the Rise.

    (And the only reason I can even go into Tartarus or Ravensmoor again is because I did a few evenings of ERG during double XP. And I feel dirty because of it.)
     
  17. Anpu

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    Which Dynamic Object based game using the Unity engine is that exactly? I can't think of any off hand.
     
  18. Lathiari

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    You know what, you are right.. they should just put up a big sign in the new player zone that reads "Warning this is an object based unity game so it's going to run at sub 30 fps allot of the time regardless of your hardware configuration, please do not log out and continue playing".

    Again, this is not an attack on the game, these were observations on things that I feel are a problem and performance can be a problem.. regardless of the engine, regardless of the game style, regardless of the graphical fidelity of the project and regardless of how it makes you feel personally to hear it, performance is an issue.
     
  19. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    This sounds like a cool idea, but wouldn't it negate getting resistances in the first place? Unless a pierce is per school and only works as a "crit" meaning my Death Skill would not penetrate your Death Ward 100% of the time, only on an RNG "crit" chance maybe?
     
  20. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    This is a tough one to debate. On the one hand, there should be "raid" type places in the game for people to party up and raid. On the other hand, people have in the past solo'd these - there is a disconnect somewhere in there for me because I don't believe every area of the game should be solo-able. However, I do agree that they should make a lot more higher end zones for solo'ing. This has been suggested ad nauseum for years - more higher level zones that are soloable (not raid stuff - unless there is an instanced raid like UT tucked away in the zone), more Overland encounters that are tougher, etc.

    Circling back around - I always thought UT and Tartarus were supposed to be raid areas. That people have gotten to solo them relatively quickly after they were introduced, that's the disconnect for me. Yes, after a long time, after more things are introduced and people get powerful, those should be solo-able by a few, but not so quickly after they come out.

    One thing I was thinking of earlier as well was taking any zone and scaling it to an individuals liking. We are already going into instances (whether a zone or "dungeon" within a zone). I can't imagine it would be far off the mark to let people either select the difficulty or for it to scale to them. One zone could literally challenge a person for the lifetime of the game if it keeps getting harder with them, no?
     
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