General suggestions about Skills and Combat

Greetings everybody! During R10 some specific issues about these two systems (and how they intertwine) drew my attention, and i'd like to share concerns (and possible solutions) with everybody. I must say Glyph system and combat is what interests me the most since is what dragged me into the game.

I'd like to point that the suggestions i wrote come from both my personal experience in game and comments on this forums, so i acknowledge these are not only mine, but a byproduct of all the community... Just that is hard to keep track of where i read this and that, so please, forgive me if i wrote something you come up with and didn't mention you. Think about it as a recopilation of ideas with my personal touch.

Without any further ado, i present issues on green, and related suggestion below every issue.

• Changing armour while in combat is unrealistic and odd. Deck swapping should mean "combat attitudes" not "a whole different playstyle".

+ Only weapons should be changed with the deck.​

• Combos are cool, but the current implementation is not intuitive, and they somehow break the flow of battle if you want to release it right now.

+ It would be great to implement a way to release combos without needing to build them first. A lot has been discussed about this topic, being my favorite to make combos by activating all the involved skills at once (through key bindings) or by activating them sequentially (pushing keys fast).
+ I'm mentioning this suggestions as an alternative to the current mechanic; preparing a combo is also interesting because it allows you to build a powerful move while you fight, or just to use it for later. (and it's also the only way of making them if you're playing with the mouse). Nonetheless, i'd change the combo key to shift; While holding shift, you're making combos. Stop pressing it, and you're hitting stuff.​

• Since melee combat is based on getting to the back of the opponent, the fastest way of doing it is through him, and if not adressed that will become mainstream, and pvp fights between melees will become a constant-passing-through-your-opponent show.

+ We need some sort of player collision to avoid it. Couldn't think anything solid (pun intended).​

+ Updated: as Mallak pointed out, collision could affect negatively into other aspects of the game, but i'm still concerned about the "melees do it from behind" situation (once again, pun intended).​

• Even when there are not much top tier skills implemented, I don't feel them as a real top tier skill.

+ In my opinion, top tier skills should be awesome, something that make you say "OMG i'm going to spend a s***load of skill points here because i want to have THAT!", so it makes the points invested worth it against having those point on climbing other skill tree looking for low level useful skills. Not an actual solution, just a reminder .​

+ MalakBrightpalm: I would rather the really low tier skills were potent, so that everyone could grab an intense grab bag of awesome, and then go top tier for highly specialized (but extremely special) abilities. That way, generalists could be cool, specialists could be cool, hybrid two tree or three tree builds could be cool, and there would be more viable, fun ways to build a character than any one person could ever complete.​

+ Updated: Top tier skills should be in the line of skills that in a given situation, allows you to turn the tides of battle. Situational and powerful, but not overwhelming.​

• Skill failures for people getting out of range is a great idea, but is seriously affected by latency issues. I got a WiMAX connection and on Sunday it was rainy... i'm not the best at PVP, but on saturday i managed to get some kills. On sunday, it was a festival of failure, not being able to land a single hit in some combats.

+ I think the intended mechanic here is to be able to dodge skills. And we have a dodge mechanic. so why not change the failure by enemies being out-of-range to a failure because of dodging? It should be easy... a skill will land if you casted it within range UNLESS player was rolling over when the skill was casted (let's mention that rolling over animation lasts for almost a second, so it allows to anticipate moves)
ADD-ON: Writing this i just thought... plate mail rolling characters seems odd. Why not give the evade mechanic an armour dependant feeling? light will allow you to roll, evading the hit completely; heavy could make the character to adopt a defensive stance, halving the damage and greatly reducing chance for impairing effects caused by the incoming skill.​

• Armor skills requiring only to have an associated chest equipped to be activated undervalue plate.

+ The ground was scrubbed with my face a lot of times by a player who wisely stacked all the attack the current system allowed him to, and he had the attack bonus in heavy armour just by having a chest plate allowing him to get the benefits of the skill tree without suffering the slugs. In my opinion, you should be full plated to be able to use plate skills. Likewise, to use a light armor skill, you should have no plate on you. If the system wants to favor mixed armour for slug handling, save a spot for it in tactics (wans't it medium armor at first?)​

• Key bindings need some love!

+ I'd like to see the key assigned to an specified slot below it. I tried to change the key bindings so they were more manageable, just to find myself hitting the wrong key all the time because my brain reacted to the number he saw.​

• And the main concern of everybody... The constantly changing of glyphs draws away the focus of the battle. And since skill position changes, you can't be focused entirely on combat.

+ This is a hard one to address... But i'm positive the good way to go is giving players a way of knowing what came in and where without needing of checking the skill bar. My best thought is to show changes in the glyph bar around the character as if he were thinking it; For example, incoming glyphs pops from the characters head and are displayed in the left side; glyphs about to be discarded displayed on the right side, and they fade into nothingness when they're discarded in the end. The display is just meant to be a reminder, so they should be on screen no more than a second. This mechanic allows a player to fight without looking at his bar, using only his memory.
Disclaimer: i acknowledge this could be a great deal to people seeking mostly immersion. I'd pick the most immersing way of doing something, but the current combat system (which i love) represents a big flow of information, and the most affordable way of giving that information is through the screen. I think even being an immersion breaking effect, it has the potential to allow us to enjoy our battles without looking at the skill bar, and thats a tradeoff i'd sign, even if it means having things floating around my character.​

Well, that's all for now. I left some things unsaid but i think they have the potential to be developed a bit further, so i'll shape them up and post them shortly. I hope you find this points interesting, and looking forward to hear your thoughts about them.

As the discussion develops i'll keep updating the OP so it reflects the flow of the conversation. Please, tell me what you think!

 

It looks like all of these points are reasonable issues, and the solutions are well thought out, and mostly practical! Thank you for posting it! :-D And I look forward to see how combat advances in the near future..

 

Agree with most of that but I like the constantly changing glyphs. Poses a challenge during battle, keeps it fresh, and adds strategy and luck in roughly equal doses to combat.

Shocked at how much I liked the card system. Turned my nose up to it at first. But loved it almost instantly. And that's before fully understanding the ramifications of deck construction, and before the various skill trees are available.

 

With this I agree wholeheartedly. I like the idea of changing strategems, maybe even fast swaps of weapons, but you shouldn't be able to don or shed full plate in anything closely resembling combat. Even cloth can be a pain the the butt when you are trying to put it on in a hurry. Combo building with an intuitive hotkey combination will help people take their eyes of the action bar, which is one of the major foci of the complaints ABOUT the current system.

While I do agree somewhat with the desire to add player collisions in, I think I'm against this point 100%. First, the goal of melee combat is not to get behind your opponent. You can only do that with an immobile or distracted opponent, so that's more the goal of AMBUSH. In a real duel of alert equals, you rarely get as far as a flank position, if you actually get behind them it's not really a fight of equals. As for the value of collision, I imagine a crowded marketplace, where everyone is gathered around an important NPC, and causing impact collision with each other... no thanks. I'd rather just be able to walk straight through you, it will help simulate the way real people move, because when I really need to get past someone in a tight passage, I don't walk up to a one foot radius barrier and then stop. I squeeze past. In combat, I don't circumnavigate my opponent, I put him off balance and move through his center of gravity as part of an attack move.

And here again I have to disagree. While I too like to have those flashy skills, if they are SO good that you are willing to spend that s***load of skill points, then what you've really done is invalidate every build that doesn't use a top tier skill, as well as all the lower level skills. The lower level skills are only valuable as a vehicle to GET the top tier skills, so it doesn't matter so much which ones you take. That means there aren't an infinity of builds, there is one, maybe two, for each top tier skill. The top tier skills will have certain needs in order to work perfectly, and the build that supports that need most effectively while selecting that top tier skill will be THE build. If there are two nearly equal and wildly different builds, cool, but mostly the online community will whittle them down to one build per top tier, and then run them against each other (and declare an entire skill tree moot because it's idealized top tier build doesn't stand up to the test).

I would rather the really low tier skills were potent, so that everyone could grab an intense grab bag of awesome, and then go top tier for highly specialized (but extremely special) abilities. That way, generalists could be cool, specialists could be cool, hybrid two tree or three tree builds could be cool, and there would be more viable, fun ways to build a character than any one person could ever complete.

Also, if the TOP tier ability is the point of a tree, then each tree introduced adds ONE playstyle, if the BOTTOM skills are where the oomph is, each tree introduced in extra content adds dozens of new build options and combos.

Wait, now in addition to constantly changing key binds and constantly changing abilities, I have to manage it from MEMORY? I don't think I can get behind that.

Right. I am actually totally willing to have stuff OPTIONALLY all over my screen. Some of us learned to play with seven different side windows, a chat bar from top to bottom that stayed at half fade all the time, combat text floating across the combat field, targeting halos, group tactic markings, a heads up minimap faded across some or all of the screen... and some of us don't want so much as a colored dot showing rough monster health, or nameplates. As long as the UI can be built to allow for individual selection, I'm for it. If it forces you to use all that midscreen display, or makes it impossible to get the information, that's bad.

 

Hi Budner! I also like the constantly changing glyphs, and i love and agree with all the features you mentioned! I was only suggesting that those changes could be displayed around the character somehow, so you can get some information without needing to keep looking at the skill bar. Not trying to change the way it works, just suggesting another way for the game to pass on the information to me. Glyphs keeps changing going up and down, discarding and comboing them, but having an optional notification interface. If you feel the glyph system could be damaged by my suggested mechanic, I'd love to hear your concerns.

Top tier skills: Thank you very much for your detailed opinion. You shed some light about my top tier skills issue, and indeed you're right sir. Top tier skills shouldn't be the "I-WIN button" of each skill tree, but more in the line of something that in a given situation, allows you to turn the tides of battle (given that the situation happens when you have the skill ready). I'll update the OP to include your proposition as soon as i post this one.

About the floating glyphs, of course it should be optional. I'm for ways of getting information, but some people my not deem it as important as i do. And of course it shouldn't replace the current system, it's conceived as an additional feature, so you could keep the skill bar and pass on the floating glyphs.

An aside on the subject: given the strong feeling of some members of the community for having a clean view of the game, UI elements that gives any kind of extra information should be always optional, so they don't get in the way they want to play the game. The trick is to determine which UI element gives "extra information". For example; the skill bar is currently a fixed element on the UI, probably thought as a must have since you don't have another way to check the glyphs dealt by the system, but since we have Full locked decks, which with a bit of practice removes the need of checking your skill bar constantly, UI skill bar should be optional and have an specific key binding to show/hide. This way, people who favors a clean UI against combat have a clear choice.

Suppose the system i'm suggesting is implemented; correct implementation of it will come by giving it as an option in coexistance with the rest of options:

• You could play with floating glyphs + skill bar, having a bit clogged screen but maximizing the information you get.
• You could play displaying only the skill bar if you need a constant check of the current state of skills, and you deem the information given by the floating glyphs redundant or innecesary.
• You could play displaying only the floating glyphs using the key binding mentioned before to take "peeks" at the skill bar when needed. This way favors people who want to check the skill bar the less the better and half locked decks where people are using a given number of abilities and just need to know what came up in the random slots.
• You could play with neither! Going for a full locked deck allows you to consider information given by this two system as irrelevant or simply not desired, if your preference is to have a clean UI.

Regarding player collision: I see, i didn't stop to think about the implications it could have in the rest of the game, and once again you have a point. However, i think the going through your opponent thing needs to be addressed; just by going back and forth through the enemy allow autoattack to get the bonus if it triggers in the right timing (or at least that was my impression). I can't come up with a simple solution right now, and applying the collision system only to combatants is something i wouldn't go for, because having two different situations is even more unrealistic than having only one. I'll update this too, and think about it. Any suggestions will be welcome, but do note the "simple". I think is best if since i'm posing specific problems, we address them thinking of straightforward solutions.

 

I was gonna post this in the Q4 announcement thread but this seems like a more suitable place:

w/r/t movement and combat: I really like this change in R11 penalizing movement for ranged/magic users. I do hope they implement something similar with melee weapons as well, though.

I noticed in a few 1v1 duals with melee that we did lot of running around trying to get behind each other, and we had exactly the latency problem the developers mentioned in the update. It seems like backstabbing should not be that easy, but neither should it be impossible, especially if you root/stun an opponent and then circle around.

Also w/r/t player collisions: How about not allowing players to run through each other in PVP areas or when engaged in combat with each other(i.e. if player A hits you, you can no longer run through player A, nor him through you, but you can still both run through player B). Edit: Another possible solution might be some kind of attack of opportunity system that allows you to score a critical on an opponent who tried to move through you in the middle of combat.

Additionally, (and I think it has been mentioned before but I'm not sure if it is beyond the scope of the engine to do this) it would be great if arrows or spells which fire in a linear fashion could hit/be blocked by characters/objects in the path of the spell to the target. So an arrow or a fire arrow spells fired at a target would hit the wrong target if there was a man between the caster the target, but a fireball, which arcs in the air, could go over the middle man and still strike the designated area.

Finally, I would like to see bonuses for characters ganging up on a single character in melee. I'm actually not sure this will be necessary, but I like the idea because it makes practical sense, and I think a number of low level characters should be able to have a chance to take down a very high level character.

Personally I would prefer a slower, more strategic type of combat that is more focused on the deck system and skill/player combinations.

Someone feel free to correct me if I just misunderstood any existing mechanics/planned features.

One more minor note: can we get crafting tools to function as actual weapons when equipped? Obviously they will not be good weapons but I would like to be able to put a hoe into someone's skull or stab them in the eyes with a pair of scissors. Also dual wielding smith hammer and sickle is necessary for the revolution.

 

For this I would suggest that bonus damage to back attack not be an automatic part of every character. Some builds will no doubt try for that WoW-Rogue feel, stun the enemy and get behind for a big kidney remover, then vanish and get behind... but most builds shouldn't get a massive damage bonus just from attacking from the rear. This will suddenly make more sense if we stop thinking of the character on screen ONLY doing exactly what the graphics show. We just don't have the programming time or possibly even the graphics display capacity for showing how a REAL person would react, looking back over his shoulder, bringing a weapon or shield behind him to parry, spinning in place (which with the right footwork can be done VERY quickly, far more quickly than current "hold down the turn button" or "spin the mouse" command interface allows for)... so the assumption that any attack directed at someone's back would get automatic critical hit privileges bothers me a little. Yes there are sensitive places to hit there, but actually there are some pretty sensitive places to hit on the frontside as well, and we don't automatically get hit for double damage when someone gets a shot at us from in front.

 

What bothers me is that due to lag I see person in front of me when they are delivering attack from behind. It is impossible to deffend against that with the current settings. People can roll and attack faster than I see them to do so.

Also I am not sure how to introduce player collisions with current lag.

 

the problem with locked glyphs may be solved simply by removing the additional cooldown penelty, as it stands, locked glyphs are incurring a triple penelty. skill points, focus, cool down......

 

I would actually like to see switching INTO combat stance produce no cooldown or a very brief cooldown. Some of the builds I have tried actually require one to switch to combat mode.... wait... wait some more... maybe go get something to eat (I'm not exaggerating) and THEN attack. Probably a good two to three minute warm up. This is because they had as their core and opener a skill with a VERY large cooldown.

Now, I can see having the cooldown on USE, so that we aren't spamming that power. But to proc a 3 minute cooldown on a power because I drew my sword? That's lame.

If it's been three minutes since I last did it, it shouldn't be exhausted.

 

Basically I think that if they think they are going to do balancing when most players are very low level, they aren't going to get that good of result data back. Of course they can get data internally but they will get better combat and pvp data if they just let everyone start with the maximum potential decks like they have done previously.

As for cards, so far Portalarium has shown next to 0 creativity on the part of Card decks and card combat.... really unimpressed with it. Some of the abilities are cool and the combat paths are intriguing but currently it is kind of awful.

They have to remove all non-combat and pvp related cards IMHO from the current skill line-up. Nobody is going to want to combine potions and cards all in one hotbar, myself thinks the hotbar system needs massively to be updated from the current version, it's not competitive ATM. Lots of potential but not yet.

thx

 

I haven't played with a locked deck besides the few starter levels, so i can't talk from the experience... but i think that even when the true an intended penalty for Locked deck mode is the increased focus cost, fixed and initial cooldowns on skill have an intended meaning of balance, but are perceived as a hindrance. For what is worth, i said this in another post.

I wrote that thinking about buffs; In my opinion, attack skills should have a more manageable starting cooldown, close to nothing even. As you said is not realistic nor fun requiring to unseath and have a cup of tea before being able to strike... To me those cooldowns seemed in place because the control Locked system gives against Random system, but it doesn't seem fair to undermine a system; what seems right is to give the Random system other advantages, instead of crippling the Locked system.

@mike11, I agree with you regarding high level testing. I think having the servers open 24/7 from now on would help that point, assuming they manage to keep wipes at minimum (let's not forget leveling needs to be tested too, so some wipes could be needed). I think the Random system is awesome and appreciate many of the steps regarding combat, but in my opinion the way skills (and skill trees) are designed doesn't fit the rest of the system. I expect changes to be done in that matter, since having a half awesome combat system is almost the same of having a system not awesome at all. What's what you don't like? the way skills are designed, or the way skills are used?

I'm glad to see this post resurrected! as i stated in the OP, as we discuss the ideas i posted or participants reach some sort of consensum in whatever topics may appear, i'll update the OP to reflect the current line of thought. Throw in your suggestions!

 

There is currently 2 things which leave me feeling not satisfied with the skills and combat:

One reason is that they just have one combat hotbar and they throw everything on it. Why can't they get more creative than that? Why do our abilities have to be on the (small and requires looking at in many cases) hotbar? I don't like the "funneling" effect this has on players command of the avatars. For instance take "Eidetic Memory" skill and Card Locking. Why can't those have a more graphic display or even animations? I would personally not bind those abilities to the hotbar like they have done because I don't see the need for it. http://s28.postimg.org/ug8p0oe2k/DRAW_new.jpg this image shows something I sketched up which includes showing a bit of what a enemy cards (might) have.


Another thing about Skills that irks me is they have casually included quite a few non-combat related abilities into combat and Skill Paths. I think this is a huge no-no as these kind of things are ALWAYS the first to get "fixed" later on. Just do it right from the start please.. I don't think the non-combat skills belong in the Combat Skill system, there should be another section of Skills to put those things in.

Lastly there is the whole point that we aren't going the UO skill method but I'm not really that familiar with that system, from the little I played UO I preferred it mainly because it was different that everything else and also acted in a way that worked will in conjunction with the Skill Cap system.

cheers

 

I must just say that if the random system is so good, it shouldn't need a FURTHER advantage (or should I say handicap) vs the locked system.

This is just one more proof that the random system IS a disadvantage, it IS a hindrance, and I for one am not enchanted with the prospect of having the "Little Timmy" of combat systems along, with it's doting parents constantly skewing things out of true so as to give it a fair chance.

If the devs are going to insist on keeping the random ability system, they should just pile it up with rewards rather than nerfing the locked system.

After all, I am already paying talent points to have the locked abilities, I am already paying extra focus cost, I am already sacrificing the chance of getting combos, must I also be nerfed senseless to give the gimp a fighting chance.