The Ideal Economy?

@Bowen Bloodgood I had to re-read your OP a couple of times to grasp what the ideas are, and for the most part I agree with you, but gambling & entertainers would only target a specific group...

What do you mean by "multi tier" currency? If you mean gold/silver/copper coinage I agree, but if you mean 10s, 100s, 1000s in bill form I don't agree...

A finite money supply, I think the game already has an arbitrary number set in the background... Then what would happen when that number is reached? I guess gold would start getting smaller than they are for loot drops or NPCs would just stop buying from players... Something like that would cripple the economy because the lower class (new players) wouldn't be able to buy anything from the upper class (established players) who have all the wealth and could afford any price set by a player... @Weins201 this is the reason a Guild controlled economy doesn't work, the guild members would just sell / buy from each other, rather than the World... Creating a situation of becoming a member or doing without... Crushing any freedom in the economy...

A reactive market is in the plans, although I'm not sure it will be in Ep 1... But the only problem there is, is NPCs don't sell raw materials, and I dought very highly that any player would sell raw materials to an NPC... If they do for quick cash, the raw materials aren't showing up as a buy item (which I think they should)... If NPCs would offer raw materials, then players would need to compete with the NPC pricing, otherwise you get the crazy inflated pricings by players on public vendors... 3000 gold for 1 tin is not what I call reasonable... The only way to have a "supply / demand" market is to have some form of "auction" system in place, pricing will set itself at a level according to the world economy... Otherwise players are just picking a price out of thin air... Watch any real market and the price goes up when there're a lot of buyers (sellers market), and the price goes down when there're a lot of sellers (buyers market)...

Getting currency to flow, meaning get players to buy things, well ya... I have no problems buying things and then accumulating more, but I've never had more than 25k in the bank... I guess you want the "over achievers" to stop hording, and start spending? Well, do what they do in the real world, but the game controls it, not through rare drops, but offer 1 of a kind Artwork or 1 of a kind furniture or 1 of a kind Hope Diamonds... The game should have an Auction house where the game offers these 1 of a kind items at auctions starting with min bids of 1 mil... The players get rares, but at a price, taking gold out of the system... Why else would a player want to horde more than 1 million... Have estate sales, where a Castle with some history is auctioned off, you could do sealed bids... Or in the Spring have a Great auction where players could gather to out bid one another for game rares...

Otherwise just put a cap on what players can horde...

 

gold/silver/copper or bronze yes.

This is why I say in any economy the currency needs to flow. People need to WANT to spend their gold.. repeatedly.. if it's not running out of money in a finite system.. it's accumulating too much in a faucet/sink system.

NPCs should sell a limited supply of harvestable goods.. be it material or produce. The player market can always sell in bulk.

In terms of auctions I suppose there could be something like a silent auction set up. One of a kind items seem a bit much though.. extra work for just one person? But anything rare enough should do fine.

 

This discussion seems back in style when considering NEVERDIE ~TL~
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...ir-ico-for-etherium-block-chain-tokens.95387/

 

This would definetly be a great gold sink if implemented .

EDIT - I just noticed this topic is from 2015

 

Who is responsible for this time warp? Ah....the younger days I remember them well.

 

This is a great discussion, unfortunately, the only economic principal worth discussing here only touched part of the problems spoken about in this thread : hoarding. Supply and demand is basically non-existent on this server. The supply has BLOWN AWAY the demand thanks to a dwindling population, a craft-heavy influx of goods from those that do play, and their lack of utilizing and using up those crafts permanently, requiring them to burn more.

Unfortunately, until this is remedied with a massive influx of players and/or a long period of time where new goods don't appear on the market, any other talk about economics in this game just doesn't make sense. The fundamentals are broken to a point where basic laws of economics barely exist here.

 

Dude, you had some good points... If I can remember what you said:

Player X is offering 1k cop ore for 50g per or 50,000g
Player Y is offering 1k cop ore for 54g per or 54,000g
Player Z is offering 1k cop ore for 47g per or 47,000g

In this game it's very hard to see what all the players have to offer because they're all over the place, and unless you get lucky, sometimes you never cross paths, if you do, you need to remember where they are (from a buyer standpoint)... From a seller's standpoint you need to wonder if they're making any sales and undercutting you or making a bigger profit

In this scenario, the buyer (me) needs some heavy cash because in order to make a purchase (buyers always buy cheap), they need a min of 47,000g... I must say, that's a lot of gold, I'm just a crafter, I would have to walk away, I couldn't afford it... So I go mine my own or offer purchase orders for 50 ore for 2,500g and pray someone crosses my vendors path...

Or a game NPC could offer 1,000 ores for 25k (25g per) and then I could buy 100 ore from the NPC... Would 100 ores fill my needs, let's see I'm trying to make a chain suit of armor and need 40 coils of wire, and that's 160 ores is what I need, just for the wire, in addition I need 6 bindings which is another 12 ores, so I need 172 ores...

If the NPC were to run out of the 1000 ore, there should be a lag time for a new shipment to arrive, then they would offer those for 26g per and every 1000 sellout should cause the price to rise... And the NPC could buy ore from the players at half price and every 1000 ore purchased from players, should lower the price over time... For this to work, there should be 1000 ores removed from the spawning ores or an unscrupulous guild could simply farm the ores AND purchase all the NPC stocks and still sell for 50g per...

Maybe the game should limit a stack size to 1000 and only allow 1 stack per account...

The point being that if there's an abundance of ore, the spawn should slow down to no spawn at all (or move to another region), until the surplus is used up... By limiting the stack size, it minimizes "Hoarding", like any commodity the game can only sustain so much... Having the game NPCs compete with the players, prices can fall when a surplus exists, and rise when a shortage exists (meaning the ores are spawning for everyones use) and the NPCs can adjust their prices accordingly...

8600g for the metal parts of a chain suit leaves me no room for a profit...

 

I got all hyped and then noticed the topic was from 2015 ...didnt wanna be blamed for resurecting timeless posts so i deleted mine ..

 

What economy? i need nobody, i can be all and everything, the only thing it takes is time.
There is no economy, because there are no dependencies.

Some have everything, others have less.
But in the end all will have everything or have left.

The MPO/ MMO part is broken by Design.

Edit: oh jeez, thread necromancy

 

Don't feel bad, it's a great subject... If you want to start a new thread go for it, but just because this thread is from 2015 doesn't mean it's not an important topic...

 

Good point ill keep that in mind..for now wanna make a post about combo's.

 

Blame @Time Lord for this resurrection......

 

Points finger @Time Lord

 

What his argument overlooks is the fact that most players don't WANT to do all that extra work. But high prices and lack of availability on merchants pretty much forces them to as it's less work than earning the gold to pay the high prices. Law of least effort.

 

Have you guys and gals seen the NEVERDIE incentive or motive?
"Funds will act as an economic stimulus & will promote game development & job creation"
"Many of the games and worlds developed with NEVERDIE API will feature a wide variety of virtual items and treasures that can only realize their full value through an auction platform. Our smart contracts will ensure that when you find a rare treasure you can get the maxim price".
"Funds are an investment vehicle & in some cases provide the opportunity to harvest bonus resources for crafting and trading on the Blockchain".
"eSports is an essential component for developing lasting communities around online games. eSports allows players to pit their skills against each other outside of the grind of the game and in a heightened atmosphere that is engaging for spectators. It allows everyone to celebrate the culture of the game and gives people the chance to shine and a reason to strive to be the best".
Quotes from NEVERDIE

We here in SOTA have our COTO which links our ingame activities in creating real $USD values through our Add-On Store, very similar to NEVERDIE's incentives to play their games.
When we think of what our economy is based on, we normally think of our commodities. Yet those commodities have been stockpiling in many guild's holdings and not recirculating or being sold to NPCs. That's bad for our economy's base, which new players rely on, yet also allows for market manipulation.

If our COTO could save us from stockpiling through encouraging all commodities to be either circulated, used or sold to NPC's, then that creates stimulus through motive to go out and get needed commodities. If our COTO are dropped more often from sources which provide those commodities that are short on supply, while dropping less for those commodities which are in greater supply, then we can encourage such a stimulus, while providing discounts (which COTO's are) to those who venture to get or supply those commodities, while also encouraging our players to play our game more often.

The best way to identify such shortfall commodities, is to provide COTO investment funds, where COTO can be invested into. Those commodity funds can then rise or fall in their percentage dividends depending on if they were in a shortfall, while loosing some of their increase percentage if they are held in commodity flooded funds. This not only encourages actual money investment in our game through buying COTO in the Add-On Store, but also provides a percentage return when held in one of the market funds.

Within the NEVERDIE concept (which we've spoken of market stimulators well before this within our own game), those funds can be shifted from one market (or game) to the next with transaction fees. If we can imagine even guilds being funds, this could be where if members of that guild have been actively playing our game, then their percentage return on any COTO invested in their fund would rise. When it comes to our commodity funds, their return percentages rise when in short supply, while declining in greater supply. When guild's actively hunt, their percentages rise, yet when they are inactive they fall.

These are only concept examples and not meant as a finished working model, yet are provided here to stimulate ideas of how our COTO could better help keep our game more active, funding our game, as well providing discount to our players & investors through our better use of COTO.

There is no finer thing that our players can do than actually play our game and thus stimulate our player based economy (which everyone knows is crap right now). We need a reason for our stockpiled commodities to be used or sold (including gold) and we need our world's marketplace to have a more real link to actual $ values through their spending in our Add-On Store, or invested through COTO funds which can be traded between players or spent through ingame elven shops.

Some may think this unreasonable, yet all currency is backed by something and our COTO can fill that need better than any ingame (unused) gold can.
~Time Lord~

 

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I posted an even old thread in Dev+ back in the day.. something like a Finite Economy or some such. One of the key ideas was that NPCs should react to what players are buying and selling and adjust their prices accordingly. If someone paid more for something on a vendor, nearby NPCs selling the same item should raise or lower their prices to compete. Also, if an NPC didn't sell anything over time.. they would lower their prices.

The big problem of course is that they've gone and designed the game such that the player economy and NPC economy are almost entirely isolated from each other. Rather than one big world economy, there are two separate economies. Which for me as an RPer makes no sense at all. I mean if you were a merchant, wouldn't you compete for business?

 

But a lot of players want to be self sufficient and dislike to be dependent.
That's what i heard all the time if i asked for limitations and restrictions.
Yes i dont want that too, i dont want to be self sufficient etc... I want balanced dependencies, but this is against the "you can and should level all and everything" attitude of a lot of players.
Therefore imho MMO is broken by Design. You can do it, but you dont need to do it.
At the end if people arent limited to do all, they will do all or they do quit, because it's too hard to do all or feels dull in some way. I for myself loose identification to my char if i would level all and Master all, no matter if crafting or adventuring skills.
I think if one single player is self sufficient in the world, he has too much power and economy is unbalanced.
One single player can crush the market.
And the actual existing Limits and diminishing returns are not enough to prevent players with lots of GM and Masters in more than one Crafting tree.
Just think of if you can choose only 3 trees of all harvesting, refining and producing skills.
Some will gather 3 types of ressources. Some will combine harvesting / refining/ producing, but they would all depend on other crafters.
Same for groupplay and "roles".
SotA is maybe a MMO, but with SP offline mechanics and therefore imho broken by Design.
They wont change that for MPO because a lot of players exactly want that.
They dont care for interesting and challenging groupplay or economy.
Or they are maybe shortsighted, i dont know.
Would increase player interactions, and to me MP is only about this. Player interactions.
You can do this, but you only need one to break the cycle.


@ neverdie things, i have to admit i dont understand that and it sounds to much Business like for me. In the End i am not that Bitcoin player type. I dont want to do work in a RPG i want to immerse and roleplay.
SotA s System is all overall more and more RP unfriendly to me.
It punishes you if you try to play an authentic Archetype role.
I am actually dont playing.

On big other issue is, the german playerbase is dead more or less.
Or there are just that few left that dont want to play with me because the Argues i made annoy them.
So to me it's more and more or was more or less allways a SP game.
I would like to build up a Guild of Roleplayers or have some RP around in my timezone and language, but there is nothing and whatever release they will do, it wont change, because of bad press, monetarization and this MMO Design.

I forsee big rants after some weeks of release when players realize what it is about SotA MP.

We get those posts from time to time when people drop in, they are coming, test a bit and leave again, when they realize what this game is neither one thing nor another.

Sorry if i am pessimistic and disappointed about SotA.

I like so much about the game, but some core Design choice made it rather impossible to me to have fun in the long term.
But it is also because i cannot find the players who share my idea of playing the game and just do this.
I would isolate myself with this group of players from MPO and play Coop FMO, made choices and organize self restrictions and such.

But all overall its still a big compromise to do. And i know there are already such "groups". There was the RP Group around devilcult iirc and Time Lord and Daemonium Malum (?) want to do things like that, but i am playing in a completely different timezone and would like to RP in my mother language.

Anyway... One more lamentation to get disliked by other german players.

 

I think you may be misreading a bit. There are certainly some players who want to be completely self sufficient, but just because someone says "I think we should be able to do everything is we want" doesn't mean that's what they want to do. I think we should have a classless system with no hard cap.. just like we have.. but I don't want to master absolutely everything just because I can.

In my experience, the majority of players simply don't have the time or energy to be self sufficient. Especially if it's easier to buy resources.. but that's the key. It needs to be easier for us to buy the resources than it is to go out and get them and right now that just isn't the case due to the high prices. The dynamics here need to change so people don't feel forced into self sufficiency. It's less about the freedom to be able to do everything so much as it is the effort.

Of course, if it's too easy to master all the skills then players will do that. Fortunately, I think harvesting is enough effort to act as a deterrent. It's just the high prices overcome that by not giving people much choice.

 

Good RP always needs tasks and challenges. Yet what I've seen in my past RP gaming, is that RP is infectious, meaning that the more people that are playing, they meet those players of good RP and are then encouraged to take on an RP persona for themselves... "because RP players are so cool to be around" which is why they multiply in a player rich environment, or game that has allot of people playing in it.

That's my motive for hoping that economic stimulus through player reward "for playing the game" is so vital to me that I don't mind fishing for new ideas, or even making a fool of myself while ever accomplishing that task through our forums. Our forums is where all our ideas spawn from.

Currently our Lord British has asked for ideas from the NEVERDIE concept, and so I as a loyal subject am now searching everywhere for them. We all may not like NEVERDIE, but it's taken player appreciation and helped their games prosper through their incentives... "even if their games are crap"

I've always enjoyed many of @Bowen Bloodgood 's ideas when it comes to the economy, guild based currencies and deeper RP ideas... "and this is one of them!"


Good Role Play begins with good gaming mechanics ~TL~

 

I like this view.

@Time Lord as i said my english is to bad to understand the neverdie thing correctly.
I just fear of more monetarization.
I think a lot of german players dislike it very much. A lot of people i know dont want to pay for a house for example.
Although you argue with what it would be compared to an Abonnement etc... the pricing is to high, they see the
"red capitalism flag" and went away

I think pricing beyond Village is way to high, but anyway, i better say nothing about that, i have something near to a Town Bundle in the meanwhile

Reading the Forum often frustrates me.
Whatever...
Still pausing although i would like to find some Alternative ways and solve the oracle Quest, but i havent enough time atm and maybe it's good to get some distance to SotA at all and give it a try later again.