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Huge Questions/Inconsistencies upon Completing the Path of the Oracle [SPOILERS]

Discussion in 'Release 46 Feedback Forum' started by Vyrin, Oct 5, 2017.

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  1. Vyrin

    Vyrin Avatar

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    I began the path of the Oracle on 6/18, spoke to Arabella in Aerie on 7/28 and completed the quest on 9/30. I admit there might have been improvements since then. However, the telling of the story is so spare and problematic that it leaves a lot of questions and inconsistencies. In it's current state I don't find it compelling at all. It was at times frustrating, confusing, and ultimately quite disappointing.

    I will lay out what I am scratching my head about here in order of encountering it along the Path of the Oracle. I won't offer solutions in deference to the fact that the devs may have ideas as to how they want to flesh it out.

    TL;DR: PLEASE don't release the game without sweeping and major improvements to the way the story is told.


    1) After I collected all three artifacts from the Titans, why do I have to say farewell to the Oracle three times to trigger all the responses about how to use them? (words of power, reagents, etc.)

    2) When I meet the "Ultima Futura Automaton" she says: As you have no doubt surmised, I am the Ultima Futura Automaton. Did I miss something? How would I have had any information that the central oracle machine was called that or even existed before the Oracle herself told me?

    3) The Oracle explains further, "I am an echo of your world, echoed further through the initial, partial explorations of the Titans through the strands of the reality they sought to understand." What the heck does this mean? The further explanations really don't explain exactly what the Oracle is. We learn what it was used by the Titans to do - but not who created it or why it exists in the first place. To me, that should be a benefit of getting to this point.

    4) The Oracle says "Yet for all of that, they could never return back to that which was, their home that they knew." This is after saying the Titans used the Oracle to sustain the rift. But why would that be important? Their home was destroyed in a cataclysm - so they couldn't go back anyway. I get that they may have wanted to help others, but the way it is described here seems inconsistent for themselves.

    5) The Oracle used the phrase about her failure to find a way home, "As penance for my failure, or restitution for theirs" The Titans were doing something noble to try to find a way home for others. Why would that be worthy of penance or restitution? Did they do something wrong? I don't think so! There is no automatic guilt in failing... surely a machine that is an expert on the virtues would understand this.

    6) The Oracle says, "I was able to determine the nature of the Dire Prophecy, whose history is so important to you, and which tells much of your future." Exactly how was she able to do this if the pages are unknown to her, and the lenses haven't been reassembled. If there is another source for the Oracle to learn the nature of the prophecy - it defeats the whole purpose of going to collect the pages and the lenses in the first place! And if she knows, why wouldn't she just tell us?

    7) Why were the pages and lenses scattered? This would give some context to all the searching. Please include a reason...

    8) The Oracle says, "Once the three eyes are found, you must take them to the Confluence at the meeting of the waters of the Sanctus and Fortus rivers. Place the pages within the Pool of Destiny, and use the eyes to read what fate has written." The PoD is in the Epitaph and the location of one of the pages! The confluence chamber houses a book stand!

    8) What are the vaults? Were they created to house the pages? (although not all pages are in vaults)

    9) Who is buried in the vaults?

    10) Why were the colossi created in the first place?

    11) Why are the lenses housed at the colossi?

    12) What is the story behind the skeletons/rooms found at the culmination of the three colossi scenes?

    13) After Arabella was added to Aerie, I chatted with her. She seems aware I have spoken to the Oracle and calls it a "high honor". Well, why at the culmination of the whole path does she seem to tell me to ignore the Oracle?

    14) She tells me, "The destiny of your path has led you to her, and I feel as though you must see what she asks of you through to completion. When that happens, I will endeavor to guide you as best as I am able." To the last point and this one, Arabella says in the chamber of the Oracle at the end, "Vyrin! I hope it is not too late! I know not and care not what this... thing has told you. But I know the real lesson you have learned from your time in Novia!" So which is it? Does Arabella appreciate the Oracle or despise it?

    15) Ok so in light of the previous, maybe Arabella wasn't referring to the fact that I spoke to the Oracle directly. Because when I say Titans, she says, "...They each hold a key you will need to speak to the Oracle in person. And your destiny rests upon your so doing!" So wait, if she doesn't know that I spoke to the UFA - how is it a high honor to speak to the Oracle in the confirmatory like everyone else. Confused. (similar text can be seen when you use "help".)

    16) Arabella also says, "No mortal has laid eyes on the Oracle in person, in her halls in Brittany, for many an age." Ok, same confusion. I just have. Also, Arabella has no problem at the end showing up in front of the UFA. Couldn't she have seen her before? And she would have had to have a good chat with the UFA to be able to say she doesn't trust it.

    17) If Arabella doesn't trust the Oracle, why doesn't she warn you about going to the confirmatory on the Isle of Storms?

    18) When you ask Arabella about the Cabalists, she says, "Darkness rises again! Cabalists, wraith-like entities that follow the teachings of the Obsidians, are attacking with greater and greater frequency. They are in search of their next leader; an immortal they believe will reveal a dark prophecy to be fulfilled. That can not happen! You must be the one to read the Dirae Prophecy!" This is a big one - somehow me reading the Dire Prophecy helps defeat the Cabalists. But no mention is ever made of them in the Path of the Oracle before it ends.

    19) We do not learn any more about the Cabalists through the Path of the Oracle, and nothing we do affects the sieges from continuing. I have to assume that the story is completely independent of the Cabalists. Are they a sandbox mechanic?

    20) When you ask about Highvale, Arabella says, I know you already have many people that you are trying to help already, but please hurry! I fear for the people of Highvale... However, nothing you do in any of the paths explains how it resolves any of the starter scenes.

    21) Arabella is worried about Highvale, Solace Bridge and Blood River still even though I have completed the three paths.

    22) Why does the confluence chamber exist? What was its purpose and reason for being where it is?

    23) The character of Anais is so unexpected... a living child hanging out in the confluence chamber.... why?

    24) Does Anais really offer a different path of Chaos? I assume not as there is no indication of how to follow it except perhaps to not continue with the Path of the Oracle. But do nothing is not a valid quest option, as all quests have that. If there is a real Path of Chaos - the game should offer something to follow it.

    25) As you first interact with the podium, (The podium hums softly. You sense it is ready to reassemble your broken Vermillion Lens.) How in even a highly magical world do I sense that? I wasn't even aware until I got here that there was a podium! There are many ways this could be explained (e.g., by the ghosts) without some arbitrary statement like this.

    26) When I insert the 3 lenses, it says: (You activate the leftmost trigger. The arms of the podium swing out, with space for three lenses to be placed within.) Where did it explain the apparent "triggers"? Again, somehow I just magically know how the device works and choose the right trigger.

    27) Next step: (The podium activates and in a blinding flash of light, the Book of the Dirae Prophecy changes. You remove a copy from the podium - now all that remains is to read the now translated text.) I only had 8 pages - not a book that I placed on the podium. Little stuff like this matters! Could we not say, "the eight pages of the Book of the Dirae Prophey change and fuse together." Or some such...

    28) The Book has no information on what actions led to my virtues being described in a particular way. In that sense, it is quite meaningless to be told whether I am loving or truthful or narcissistic or not. Remember the goal of choices that matter? We have to see how they mattered!

    29) After I read the prophecy: I wrote of this troublingly specific prophecy in my journal. Why is the prophecy troubling to me? First, I could agree with all the assessments. Second, since I have no idea how they were determined, I don't really care about them.

    30) At this point the ghosts say: THE ONE WHO IS GREY. SEEK YE THE END. SEEK YE THE ORACLE. SEEK YE THE END. No clue as to whether, I, the Oracle, Edvard, or someone else is "the one who is grey".

    31) In returning to the Oracle, I used the"you are in no position to judge" response. The Oracle says "...It is true, I am not a judge. I merely watch and comment. For me to stand in judgement, I would have to have an opinion which I wished to enforce. I do not." This is entirely untrue, for the Oracle judges whether we are loving, truthful and courageous.

    32) If the Oracle had no opinions and was merely an observer like she says, why would Arabella be so hostile?

    33) Why is the Shroud of the Avatar a fitting end to the quest? It has not been mentioned before? Did Edvard hide it away for the Oracle to find since it is tied to the prophecy? Who made it? Why would you wear it?

    34) Is a shroud really the best name for this garment? Is it meant to indicate I am being prepared for burial? Is it designed to obscure me? (Seems unlikely since the color is designed to REVEAL your progress along the path of virtue) I can think of a lot of cool reasons as to why a Shroud would be appropriate... but there is no explanation in the game. And shouldn't there be? It's the name of the freakin' game after all!

    35) The Oracle says, as if this explains it: "It is a mark of your station, as the Avatar of Chaos that Evard prophesied the coming of long ago." Wait, so I followed the path of chaos somehow? My Shroud was white - doesn't that mean I followed the virtues? What? What if an avatar wants to follow the virtues?

    36) The Oracle says, "You are but one of many, though. There will be thousands of other avatars, many of whom have made their own choice. In fact, every outlander has the potential within them to walk the path and become an avatar. This is what Evard saw." But somehow Edvard only wrote one book, and that one book describes me. This does not at all resolve how everyone can be the avatar. In fact, this whole tension of one avatar in a multiplayer game is never satisfactorily resolved. I remember at the very beginning when Richard talked about the story - he said there had been a way this was going to be handled. It should be more than just, "suspend disbelief".

    37) The Oracle says, "Evard became disassociated from reality as a result. What you would call "insane". He could not comprehend the choices, the paths of thousands at the same decision points, how they would twist and wind around each other." Ok, but what does that have to do with the story? He was obviously coherent enough to see into the future and "describe" me perfectly.

    38) The Oracle says, "But what is of more relevance to you is that you are but one of many. There are others, who will have this conversation with me. They will not be as respectful of free will as you. Some seek to destroy the world and bring about a new age of darkness. You will have to deal with them." If she is referring to other avatars, this is not true. I am protected by her very self, and do not have to fight other avatars if I don't wish to do so.

    39) And what if I am one of those who wants to bring about the darkness? There is no choice here, she just presumes.

    40) When Arabella arrives, the Oracle says, "Ah, the lady Arabella. As I have forseen." Despite the spelling error (foreseen), it is easy to say this. Does the Oracle read the future too? Then how does she not know where all the pages/lenses will be collected?

    41) If the Oracle foresees Arabella coming, why is that important? If it's important, she should say something before it happens, like, "Arabella will appear and try to convince you to disregard what I have said."

    42) The UAF says to Arabella: My guards are apparently as taken with your charms as the long-departed liege lord, my lady. The Oracle has guards? Outside the guards are standard Brittany soldiers,,,

    43) If Arabella could come in, why hasn't she done so before?

    44) If Arabella hates the UAF, (Quiet, you infernal machine!) why hasn't she removed it from Central Brittany? Can the UAF defend itself somehow? Are the cable unable to be cut? Resistant to magic? The entrance couldn't have been sealed?

    45) Arabella tells me, "Your future belongs to you! You, and your friends, and those you have met along the path. That is what we fight for, that is what is important! Not the cryptic words of long dead sorcerers! No prophecy can control you! YOU shape what your future holds! You have the greatest gift of all, that of free will! Do not give it up so easily!" Isn't this what the Oracle just told me when I responded no one can judge me? How is the prophecy controlling me? How am I not believing that I can shape what the future holds? Bad dialogue assumes what I am thinking. Wish this was the only case. They are legion in this game.

    46) Arabella tells me: "The next part of your journey lies across the seas! Soon I will hear from my husband and it will be time to rejoin him, in Britain." So I'm confused. Am I in New Britannia and there is a continent called Britain? That's odd. Is it a city closely named to Brittany? Am I going to Earth Britain?

    47) Arabella tells me: "Until then.. continue to help the people of this land as you have been..." Um, not all avatars will have been helping. Some will have been stealing them blind, or worse.

    48) Arabella tells me: "Beware the use of the dread artifacts. They will consume your very soul, and that is too high a price to pay for any future!" Will the dread artifacts really create a permanent impairment? They don't actually. Would have to be permadeath or permanent penalties. This is untrue, and never will be true.

    49) So why are there reagent pez dispensers at the colossi?

    50) Then Arabella says, "I know you will make the right choice, Vyrin." What choice exactly is that? Aren't the choices over with? If it's the choice of using the artifacts - I just said that is not a true choice as it has no consequence.

    51) She says, "Peace be upon you, and stay to the path of the virtues, that they not be forsaken." What about those avatars who got a black shroud? I am hoping beyond hope that someone else appears for them at the the end. Maybe this is where choices will matter? If the game assumes you are staying on the path of virtues, it is not giving you a choice.

    52) Goodbye didn't end my conversation with Arabella. Had to hit escape. Seemed appropriate considering the confusion swirling in my head around what just happened.

    53) So why did my specific prophecy matter at all? What does it matter in game whether I was virtuous or not on any of the virtues. It affects the color of the Shroud, but is that important? Why does any of it matter?

    54) So how did saving the titans matter? Nothing changes in the world going forward. They are not even really important in the final Path of the Oracle. So why was it important to follow those paths anyway? The Path of the Oracle shows no dependency on having completed the three paths even though the game forces you to do it.

    55) So what really were the dread artifacts all about? Do we ever get an explanation as to how they came about? How the Titans accepted them to their undoing?

    56) In general, along the path of the Oracle, there are no books or NPC's that explain the story of all the places you travel. If I can't learn to understand why a place exists, it just becomes a pretty backdrop for a generic fetch.


    I admit, some of these things I could have missed in the dialogue, but I tried to read all of it carefully. If I missed something, it could have been explained too lightly or in the wrong place.

    In summary: PLEASE don't release the game without sweeping and major improvements to the way the story is told. It is most frustrating and unsatisfying - especially since the deep and rich story has been highlighted as a primary goal from the very beginning. The lore may be there... but it's implementation in the game is severely lacking at this point.

    Yes I am frustrated, but I am pointing this out with great hope that there is still a chance for major improvements.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
  2. Lord British

    Lord British Lord British SOTA Developer

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    WOW, this is a GREAT thread.... NO PLAYER SHOULD READ THIS! :)
    I am entering Jiras to correct or clarify most all of these ideas / suggestions.
    Don't be frustraited this is EXACTLY what these last few months are for.
    You finished the story in the first moments it was possible at all, its always broken and poorly explained at first.
    THIS IS NORMAL for a game in development.

    BUT, you feedback has helped make it get better FAST!

    Thanks,
    Richard
     
  3. Vyrin

    Vyrin Avatar

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    Thanks Richard, I really appreciate your response. I am very hopeful.
     
  4. Preachyr

    Preachyr Avatar

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    No offense, but how is this at all normal in this stage of development??

    Haven't you been telling us for a year how much you have been playtesting the story? Did you just not notice these things?

    Haven't we been told a number of times how you and Tracy Hickman had the main story all laid out ahead of time? What happened to Tracy, and did you not actually finish the storylines before he left?

    "Story complete"??? What about that? Haven't we been told for like the last year that the story was being polished? Where is the evidence of that actually happening??

    Again, no offense, I'm sure there are answers to my questions, I just wish you, @Lord British would actually take more of an interest in your community and post here once in awhile with some real answers to real questions and concerns.
     
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  5. Vyrin

    Vyrin Avatar

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    I did forget to say that as far as the scenes go on the Path of the Oracle (the colossi scenes), they were surprisingly dynamic. Puzzles, interesting features, combat that felt like it was progressing somewhere and not just a grind. They didn't advance the story, but as far as scene building goes - it showed some really solid potential.
     
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  6. Arya Stoneheart

    Arya Stoneheart Avatar

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    It would make sense that the Obsidian Cabalists made those. They did attack Opalis in the book and had to leave during the siege.
     
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  7. Lord British

    Lord British Lord British SOTA Developer

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    Don't forget, as SOON as something is functional YOU SEE IT, YOU ARE THE BETA TESTERS. You see things at the same time (and often before just due to volume of work) as I do! I have NEVER done the finale portion of the game yet, you are ahead of ME! I am still grooming the 3 main story arcs. BUT, I have been involved IN ITS MAKING of course. Just not from the player playing it side... yet.

    ALMOST every one of your comments I agree with and are NOW Jiras to be fixed / addressed. Fear not! This is a great help. Future players will thank you as well!

    - Lord British
     
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  8. Lord British

    Lord British Lord British SOTA Developer

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    NO ONE SHOULD BE READING THIS SPOILER THREAD! :)

    Also just as a note: You do have a choice on which path you walk over time (Virtue/Chaos/Evil), it is reflected in the cloak, Arabella and others DO change what they say based on your cloak. Use of The Dread Artifacts DOES matter to you LONG TERM. And... while these are being tracked NOW, they really matter for Ep2, so I will say no more....

    LB
     
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  9. Drocis the Devious

    Drocis the Devious Avatar

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    It would be interesting to get your feedback once you've gone through the scenes.

    From my perspective, there is a lack of narrative through the beginning, middle, and the end of Episode I. That creates a bit of confusion and unsatisfactory experience by the time you reach the ending. My concern is that if we're to wait until EP2 before we see stronger connections between our choices, that will result in a risk to EP2 ever being created.

    I feel strongly that we need something MAJOR at the beginning of the main quest line, something during the middle of the main quest line, and then something at the end of the main quest line that frames the story and makes the case that what you do matters in the world. I don't feel that we have anything like that now currently. (other than a shroud that changes colors)

    And regarding side quests, this is from a conversation I had in another thread:
    The idea here is that you guys should be reinforcing the idea that "stuff matters" throughout the game, not just between EP1 and EP2. I can only speak for myself but that's something I think is very important to the success of story telling in this game.
     
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  10. Paladin Michael

    Paladin Michael Bug Hunter

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    I really appreciate your comments on this side!

    May be the Episode 1 earns an outro as good as the intro ... to give a small interesting peek about consequences and what Episode 2 could be about ... ;)
     
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  11. Arya Stoneheart

    Arya Stoneheart Avatar

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    Does that mean just wearing them or using the spells?

    The Oracle does enable the Avatar to use these by giving the reagents and the words of power.
     
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  12. Paladin Michael

    Paladin Michael Bug Hunter

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    I assume, the more uses, the more negative energy is flooding your Avatar ... until (s)he feels in the mode to dance Starrlton to the end of her/his life ;)

    As the Oracle does this - we can assume, why Arabella gets furious about here at the end ... ;)

    Well, the more I am thinking about, the more excited it is :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
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  13. Weins201

    Weins201 Avatar

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    does this not concern anyone else? does this mean once started down a path or stray down a path that you are prevented from going to any other paths?

    What about starting down one one "before" release?

    This is something that could be very limiting?
     
  14. Paladin Michael

    Paladin Michael Bug Hunter

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    This is the fact, that our actions will have consequences for our life ...
    This is, what was told and a lot of people were asking for ;)

    Well, I think there will be a possibility to walk back to the path of virtues ...
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  15. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    Does the cloak change color if your virtue changes or is the color set when you get the cloak and forever immutable after that?
     
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  16. Lord British

    Lord British Lord British SOTA Developer

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    Too many questions! I will not answer most here. :)
    But, I like the early mid late framing idea. On that!
    - Richard
     
  17. Arya Stoneheart

    Arya Stoneheart Avatar

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    I have heard the shroud color can change. The book is probably what is set in stone.
     
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  18. chrisjwhite

    chrisjwhite Avatar

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    I'm telling you, the Oracle is really the Guardian...
     
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  19. Arya Stoneheart

    Arya Stoneheart Avatar

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    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Bowen Bloodgood

    Bowen Bloodgood Avatar

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    @Lord British Ok I have NOT read the OP and so missed those spoilers. ;) But I do have my own concerns regarding the story. Trying to make the single player work in a multiplayer environment seems very awkward to me. When the game treats the individual players as "THE ONE" and only Avatar of prophesy to do this or that.. is fine in single player but in multiplayer just doesn't feel right. Yay I'm the Avatar of prophecy but if I try to RP that, I'm in conflict with every other player who has finished the story.

    I know it's more work but I really think that multiplayer needs a multiplayer story.. I don't see any great need to keep online and offline story identical excepting it would be difficult to change some elements online (ie rescuing Sequanna?).. If there's anything else I find to be a major disappointment is how it feels like I can't really effect anything even in offline. I go through Artifice and see what's going on there and I CAN'T shut the place down? All I can do is be talked down to by an elf and walk out the door? Just makes me feel like I can be nothing other than a bystander watching events unfold.

    Single player should let you effect the world as an individual.. but multiplayer should allow the player base to affect things in other ways as a collective.

    Also, I feel like there are a lot of things that are explained that not only do not need to be.. but shouldn't be. Players understand some mechanics are necessary for the game and that is enough in many cases. The Oracle's protection from other players I think is a good example of that. It makes story elements like that feel contrived and convoluted.
     
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