The Scariest Monsters and Villans in the game? are "Griefers"??

The intention of this post is not to advocate griefing but rather open a discussion that can help us find a way to embrace what is considered griefing and turn it into a positive world-building component of SotA rather than toss it out as having no merit. Many of the elements of UO like stealing, pickpocketing, player-killing, etc. helped create a deeper, dangerous and much more dynamic world by allowing players to create real fear in the game. I spent some time thinking about the griefing issue and came to the realization that it is the "griefer" that actually creates more fear in players than any of the AI monsters/Villians designed to roam the world with that same intention.

I am sure people define "griefers" and what constitues "griefing" in many different ways. And a lot of those definitions will overlap, while others may not. I'm sure most of us here have heard Lord British's example in UO of the role-playing thief who opened his eyes to the question of what actually constitutes griefing. Some consider the theif stealing repeatedly from the same player to be griefing while others may celebrate it as part of the game. I do agree with LB that using non-game related aspects to create grief should be avoided as in the example of the bank-gate-kill scenario exploiting the game's technical and graphical shortcomings. An example of what I would consider acceptable griefing comes from UO where I had a friend who created a red PK but never left his house! He used mastery in tinkering and alchemy to create exploding chests that we would set out around the world. When someone opened a trapped chest and they were weak enough they would die from the explosion and if it was possible we would loot their bodies. Is that griefing? Nothing but their own curiousty (or greed?) forced them to peek inside the box. It was a diabolically ingenious idea and in my opinion player actions like that should be celebrated for creatively using the sandbox elements of the game to create a real sense of danger and unpredictability in the world. The open Player Killing in UO created a world environment that was exhilarating for both the hunter and the prey. Miners had to watch over their shoulder while they searched for valuable ore and in-turn probably raised the market value of their goods. More than likely the smartest and most successful crafter-merchants probably never even mined ore, but rather PK'd other miners or bought bulk ore from PKs who did killed miners but had no use for ore. On one occassion in UO myself and another PK killed a merchant on his way to Skara Brae. He tried the same road again and died again. The third time he came back with a couple friends. We engaged them and before we realized what had happened the merchant had ran across successfully. He had hired NPC henchmen as decoys! There is no doubt that the cat and mouse game brought just as much excitement for both sides on that occasion. This merchant was just smart and resourceful enough to devise a way to overcome an obstacle rather than to easily chalk it up as "griefing" and complain that the world was too hardcore. It is a game after all and is not the point of a game excitement, challenge and competition of wit and skill. I tip my hat to that merchant. As minor of an incident as it was it showed that he knew how to play the game and even though he lost resources and money in that instance he "won" the match. It is unfortunate that complainers are louder than the quiet smiles of the contented because I am certain that it was the silent majority of players who enjoyed the dangerous landscape of early UO.

Any world created for this type of game should not be unlike our own real world where the most fearsome creatures are not the undead or dragons but rather they are the real human minds of villains like drug cartels, rapists, powerfully corrupt politicians and idealistically driven terrorists who have changed our day to day lives so dramatically. Until the AI of game monsters and villains can reach even a small level of sophistication to match the human mind then it will only be other human players who can create true terror in any game. Perhaps SotA could implement a system where players can play as monsters or villians with the knowledge that their chosen path of gameplay expectations should be fundamentally different than a "good" player character with a system that has its own adventure, rewards, and goals. I would hope that thieves, looters, murderers, scammers will all have a place in SotA and skills associated with those less virtuous paths are available to players.

With all the time and resources invested into creating a sense of dread in the world with undead legions attacking cities and dragons roaming the skies it is ironic that the"griefer" could still be more reviled and feared by players.

Just remember this discussion when you walk outside your starting village for the first time ready to explore an exciting and dangerous new world. Are you really afraid of those AI skeletons shambling your way? Or are you really afraid knowing a dastardly PK could be waiting down the road, ready to strike and steal your loot?

I hope we can all agree that a world with no grief is really no world at all. After all, remember Trammel?

 

I agree... This is why UO was great. You didn't need to count on Artificial Intelligence to entertain you. AI has hardly progressed to this day and is no where near the unpredictability of a human mind.

I think its the unpredictability that a lot of people are not accustomed to and shy from. They like to know where the enemies will be, where the safe spots will be but to me that's not what im looking for in a game. I want a game where anything could happen anywhere and all things collide. Like the world we live in there is unpredictability, and of course some places may be more predictable, safer, familiar (your house, the city, etc) but you can't have that everywhere if you are planning to create a living world.

So until the day where AI can mimic a human and an orc can decide hes going to venture to the other side of the map where he does not spawn and try and kill your pack llama to steal your precious hides, then Im not going to be satisfied with NPCs for my unpredictability.

 

There is nothing less complex than advanced anti-grief algorithms.

 

There is nothing more boring than losing four hours of work and spending the next fifteen minutes hunting for an ankh or healer.

 

In my opinion, your description shows some resilient logic as the same time displaying near complete naivete for the opposite side of your argument. You have displayed the isolated incident as if it was the rule.

Someone original - playing a thief or a murderer - can certainly justify themselves as it being a part of their character, as one who loves the thrill and excitement of the hunt, of the steal, or of the kill. But that's not why most do it. Most do it for <i>profit</i>. Otherwise the thief would steal only what was hardest to steal - for fun, or only what they really need to survive; not steal everything they can from every passerby. Otherwise the murderer would attack or kill for the thrill of the kill, not just for the loot on the corpse.

The fact is: that the in-game Thief steals or the PK kills for profit. They do it because it is easier for them to prey on the weak and defenseless than to do any work for themselves. They select their targets to accomplish their ends, not because, as you describe, it is noble in any way.

And this is compounded because the more that people see how easy it is to hurt or kill or steal from those less powerful than them, the more players turn to villainous deeds themselves. Lawlessness runs rampant.

And then it causes a trend. Miners stop mining, they just turn to sword fighting and go and kill miners. Crafters stop crafting, because why craft when you can just go kill another crafter and steal from them. Those that don't, turn instead to meaningless deeds, because there is no longer any feasible reward for hard work, only the <i>promise</i> of having their rewards stolen. The average person that wants to just spend a few hours relaxing in a fantasy role-playing setting quits playing completely because he can't leave town without getting ganked. They quit, because no matter what a dev says, not even their cities and towns are safe. No where is safe, the griefer gets them everywhere.

The system of thieving and killing causes grief...grief that causes a real person to not to want to play.

As you say, PKs and Thieves add realism to the game world, but I say they also cause the game world to eventually become unrealistic. And this is because no one is being held accountable for their actions.

If you want to advocate the rightness of the thief or the murderer to exist, you MUST <i>at the same time</i> advocate EQUAL crime punishment.

In the real world, we fear the drug cartels, rapists, powerfully corrupt politicians and idealistically driven terrorists, as you say, that is true. We also fear thieves, arsonists, cannibals, serial murderers, psychotics, assassins, violent drunks, evil clowns, or even just doctors without a license. But are clumps of these people constantly sitting just outside the city limits, nay, make that are they standing right outside your front door?

No. Because there is a equal punishment to such crimes. There is prison, there are police, there is capital punishment, and there is vigilante justice. If law enforcement or vigilante justice catches them, they are at their end. There is no respawn and they go about their business and do it all again. There is no reverting to a save point.

If you want to say all you have above, but advocate an equal punishment to the acts making the game unenjoyable for others, I will agree.

How about the PK that traverses the wilderness killing miners for rare ore, but if he gets caught and killed it is the True Death, the deletion of their character? Okay. I'll concede. Let a player PK.

How about the thief that once caught, ALL their possessions are seized, leaving them with jail time and then only to get out and have to start from scratch? Okay, let the thief be a thief.

Then I might agree - Be evil if that is what you enjoy, but there must be absolute consequences.

Otherwise, all you are saying is that it is perfectly alright to hurt others for your own benefit. What you are saying is it is justifiable to make the game unenjoyable for others for your own profit and exhilaration.

That is what griefing is.

It is hurting others for the fact that there is no accountability.

Player Killing by itself isn't Griefing. It is killing without accountability that is Griefing. Stealing by itself isn't Griefing. It is thieving without accountability that is Griefing. If you want to create a world like that, then call it Grand Theft Auto Online or call it Deathmatch Online; you don't call it Ultima.

Ultima means role-playing. It does not mean exploiting the fact that nothing in Britannia is real, taking advantage of the fact that nothing in Ultima really punishes people being nasty to each other. Ultima means immersing myself in a rich fantasy world that I wish I could be a part of; it does not mean paying my hard earned money, to spend my very little free time, button mashing actions of a toon that isn't me, in a world I am constantly reminded doesn't exist.

That said, nothing, and I do mean <i>nothing</i>, reminds me of how unreal a world is more than griefing. Nothing is less Ultima than griefing.

But hey, that's just one old bogie's opinion.

 

I don't think it needs to go as far as final death, or total loss of every item, but I agree there should be some sort of punishment for crimes. If there's some sort of justice system that stealing or killing rewarding, but also very risky, then they could leave the world full PvP without frustrating new players too much.

Say someone's killing miners on their way back to town. After the first one the town posts a warning that it might be dangerous on that road. After the second one, the notice would say there's an unknown criminal in the area, and you should hire protection. After a few more there would be a bounty to find the criminal and bring them in for justice. After about ten murders, the town would know who the criminal is, and they would be arrested upon entering town, and they would be on a wanted list for the area.

 

When I first started playing MMOs, people who didn't PvP bothered me. They took up space on the server. They took xp / farming spots. But they added no value to the network. They were in fact playing a game with a small number of friends but not giving anything back.

SotA appears to be a very different kind of game. There are people who want to have a house and a shop and spend all day RPing with people who come by their shop. This adds to my enjoyment of the game and has a positive network effect.

PvPers add value to the game. But only if the PvP is consensual. If they're just there to weed out the RPers then they're effect is more negative than positive. I don't mind losing the people who only play to bully.

 

The problem is that half the fans here want "trammel-land" and the other want old Ultima Online. Hopefully they can make it so when creating a character you must choose and not be able to transfer your character to the other type of server.

 

As someone who's played EVEOnline this all seems rather simple to me. If non-combatants (miners, farmers or what have you) are being picked off by bandit players wouldn't the logical thing be to group together and perhaps hire guards?

'Unlawful' players are easily countered by organised 'Lawful' players that might hire themselves as escorts, guards, town patrols etc. earning themselves a steady incoming at far less risk then the quick score of robbing someone.