Spoon's thoughts - on Rare Loot Drops and RNG

Great Post and some interesting responses. I'm dead against weighted RNGs. I'm rabidly against doctoring the chances down once you get an item.

PRNG is fine, it's a little naughty to exemplify the 'extremes' as if there are players who are always in one category and poor souls in the other - the guy who always gets 'lucky' gets a drop early, then maybe another one before the 'unlucky' guy even gets close to his first one. In reality we are all both guys, and the ones in between.

Pure RNG adda drama. Whilst 'streaks' are a myth it certainly feels like one has them, and they feel both like good ones and indeed bad ones, they add drama, and they're fair.

Start messing with the dice rolls and you get a world of pain.

 

My problem with the RNG is not fairness. It more the lottery win approach gives no feeling of progression towards your goal. Yes it is nice to have that winning the jackpot feeling, but like the lottery only a few get that.

For items that are not just randomly scattered in the loot tables. Things that are in a specific place/mob I would prefer the system to have both. If the drop rate is designed to be a mean of 1 in 50, make the lottery win like 1 in 60 and if you loss you get an item. With 80 of those items you can exchange it for the thing you wanted.

Can work out the exact maths for above as I doubt they add up, but you get the idea.

Some people will get lucky, .those that don't, feel and see progression towards their goal. Which is more motivating to continue. You can see the light at the end of the tunnel, rather than thumbling in the darkness with no idea if the next bend is the last.


Regards
Spung

 

A great post and I agree - and also with Spungwa's thoughts above.
The problem I have with the RNG is not "fair or unfair" - but that its basically made every aspect of the game a slot machine.
It becomes "log in, and how many times do I want to spin that slot machine today" and, getting nothing almost every time, eventually, get bored with the entire process.

The incremental approach is better, set a goal, and go get the things, and go get it /make it.

"Get Lucky" is not a sustainable game mechanic and really only became an issue when so many items were added as low % chance crap. The original game, which was about gathering materials over time and making gear, correctly encompassed the idea of "work for it." Most people have no problem working for it. I want xyz, I know what to do and how long it will take me approximately to achieve. But flushing things down the RNG drain or wasting one's time day in and day out with no progress and nothing to show for it other than to say "well maybe tomorrow I'll get lucky..." well, it gets old. Has gotten old for me. I simply refuse to do it any longer.

 

@Steevodeevo
@Spungwa @kaeshiva

Tagged the three latest posters.

Updated second post with possible solutions. Please review.

Apologies about not doing it over the weekend, got caught up in other posts.

 

On a positive note. I liked to see the totem/essence implementation. Disregarding the bug, it was good to see.

Open to all, even the trolls as they drop on the low level trolls, progressively harder and harder to get to the end.

Easy to start, hard to finish. With progression all the way through the process.

Regards
Spung

 

@Spoon

The ideas work, but it is a significant change to the economy design. Which may not be a bad thing, but needs some very serious thinking through.

The point about making the things account bound is basically using the mechanics of "bind on pickup", which many games use. Usually using in the "bind on equip" too. These are used so you can't resell stuff, thus taking those items out of the player economy. Most games that want their player driven economy to be a core part of the game avoid these as it limits the free economy.

So really a fundamental design choice here. Like I say, not bad per se. But really about the direction Port want to go.


Regards
Spung

 

Yea I think the no-trade bind thing would only be applicable for the guaranteed bypass to prevent RMT farming.
And that the lesser more common drops would usually be salvaged for patterns.

 

It has bigger implications than just RMT though. And RMT is kind of mitigated as the price will drop if availability is high anyway.

Casuals are hurt more, as I can't give my friend an item (that i earned though paying the extra materials or so many failures) because it is mine and mine alone and they don't play as much so they still have to just hope to get lucky.

Like I say, not wrong, not bad. Just a choice, a choice with MANY downstream implications. If after considering all those implications Port consider it is the way the game should go (hopefully with consultation with the player base). Then it is a viable solution to unlucky streak.


Regards
Spung

 

@Spoon absolutely love all your suggestions!! SotA would be much more fun and less punishing, while maintaining the “rarity” feel for the top reward.

 

My experience in Sota say that there are a lot of modifiers, from global to probably even personal.

 

The Kettle of the Lich Mage!!!

This was my first time finally killing the Lich Mage in Hilt...........

 

The only real life role-playing game I ever DM'd was Star Wars with my cousin in the 90's. He'd never played an RPG before (but we played U8 'together' on two computers).

He was about 75% through the little campaign I'd written when he legit got killed by a Stormtrooper. I didn't tell him that of course, I told him he wouldn't believe what I just rolled and that the shot missed!

Yeah I know, sort of different because it was just me and him but I think the principle is there. But to this day, he says it was one of the coolest things he ever played. It's also the only one he ever played so there's that.

GMs fudge!

I also just finished the Game Design book by Scott Rogers and that dude is big on shifting the numbers when the guano hits the Batmobile.

 

A majority do.
https://www.google.com/search?q="i+fudge"+dm&rlz=1C1GCEU_svUS821US821&oq="&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j69i57j69i59.1175j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I liked the Level Up one, although he tries to cover too much ground so have to be a bit too generic.

For me it is contextual.

In one setting I would always roll in the open while in another I always roll behind a screen.
But it also depends on the maturity of the group and if one is playing for fun or for drama.

Where one shouldn't underestimate the effect of a really great death for the story. While an unnecessary death is just plain boring.

So usually I set the tone early so that everyone knows whats what. Transparency and all that jazz.

For instance in one campain I wanted it to be a hard rolls one with lives on the line all the time. Fast action etc. So I got an accomplice among the players, gave him a pre-baked character and in the third session when everyone had become attached, promptly shot him in the knee so that the group came to the realization that either they could all risk their lives to try to take him along. But then he could make a noble and beautiful sacrifice, staying behind so the others were guaranteed to get away.
That set the tone right where I wanted it and that story and that characters sacrifice then colored the rest of that campain.

Similarly I've often decided on the "mortal wound" bit. The roll kills them, but you don't off them right then. Instead you give them the mortal wound and they get to be part of the rest of the session. That way they can either create a memorable farewell (it's getting dark...), or with their guts hanging take that grenade and wait for the monster to come while the rest run for cover. Etc.

Or I make a sacrifice. I roll the kill, but then a beloved NPC or such throws themself in front or such things.

The important emphasis being for me, make it count.

While if it is unnecessary and doesn't fit the context etc, then Fudge like there is a tomorrow...

 

In my opinion Rare means something really difficult to get, if i have 100% chance to get some item once a month its not rare anymore.. You can buy from players if you dont like to grind.

 

.

Uhm?

I'm going to guess that you skipped reading after browsing the first post and went straight to commenting.

This since my very first point for solution was:

Part of the problem is that the 2-5% range isn't really that rare. Instead it is enough of a chance that you start to expect it, so you grind with the expectation of getting it leading to the percentile problem.

Where my suggestion was a jackpot should be in the 1 in 500-1000 range.
That is rare and unexpected.

Where 1 in 20-30 is just uncommon.

Which is part of the problem.
Getting a rare boss drop should be a WOW, not a "finally".

 

God yeah, that's how my first real character died. I was graciously invited to play my first ever character in my friend's older brother's Star Wars campaign when I was way too young to be even involved! It's one of those defining life memories. We did a few weeks. It was pure magic.

I was a Taciturn Mechanic (I wanted to be ESB Han Solo! I was also 12 years old!) and I met my death while my buddy (also 12 but the younger brother of one of the key players [they were like, 17 years old, and therefore Gods to us]) repeatedly tried to save me from drowning in an underwater escape from an Imperial base.

Eventually, the drama played out really well. His older brother's char came down and knocked him out while they swam to the escape craft, so they could save at least one, I had managed to open the underwater gate.

But I think I've digressed.

Make it count. That's key.