Dance parties and fishing tourneys with light sabers...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Artomus Sumotra, Jun 24, 2020.

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  1. marthos

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    Portalarium included everyone in that picture as part of the "Development team"
    "The entire Shroud of the Avatar Development team wish you the Happiest of New Years!"

    They understood that bringing a game to market is more than just writing code. You have to have your business and finances in order. Artists, project management, story writers and all the other roles that don't write code 40 hours a week are still part of the team that develops the game.
     
  2. marthos

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    Those are the numbers, raw data, devoid of any feelings.

    I don't like the fact that tens of thousands of players have left, leaving us with a ghost town game where concurrent players are measured in 3 digits and active players in 4 digits. I hate the fact that this happened. I hate that the vast majority of 60,000 who pre-ordered years ago are not playing every week or month. I hate that we haven't been able to replace those original customers with new players. But my feelings don't make those numbers any more or less real.

    The game's population is massive problem, in my opinion. I get that you disagree, and maybe the game's population is more ideal for you and your play style. I'm not trying to change your play style or desire here, but please understand where I'm coming from and many others are coming from who want tens of thousands of more players.
     
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  3. Bowen Bloodgood

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    From what source?

    Players were always going to leave and will always continue to do so.

    I wouldn't have expected that many to keep playing for more than a couple of years regardless. Wouldn't have mattered how good the game is. Your average player just doesn't stick around THAT long.

    My issue with comments like this is that we can't possibly know the motivations of enough players to provide any kind of percentage. There was no exit survey I'm aware of. Devs didn't reveal any secret information they've been collecting/tracking. Spoken in the context of a discussion where people are talking about what ills the game makes it sound as stated fact that 100% of those who left did so over the same stuff. It's misleading and I think a little unfair. Especially to apply the original backers years after the fact. By this point they have little or nothing to do with it. Some of those people never played at all, some of those were upset that the promises that were never made were figments of their imaginations and claimed they were "broken".. I'm sure everyone who was here back then remember the accusations from people who wanted SotA to be a PvP free for all that UO was at its launch because of the term "spirtual successor" to Ultima which they thought meant UO. No such promise was ever made but some of them stated they felt lied to. Despite the misunderstanding being entirely on their end. Others still simply said the game wasn't going in the direction they wanted. They technically never left as they never really joined. We don't know those numbers either.

    I never once said, or implied such disagreement. What I disagree with is simply many of the arguments themselves are that strong, valid points stated in absolutes and usually within a particular context. If I might draw an analogy here.. it's like stating a car is blue because it was dumped in blueberry juice vs being painted that way. It doesn't change the fact that it's blue. But I argue that it wasn't dumped in blue berry juice and everyone thinks I disagree the car is blue when I never said anything such thing. It's kinda like that.

    Don't worry I get it.
     
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  4. Anpu

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    The game is what it is. Period. Nothing is going to change that now. No amount of discussion is going to do anything.

    You can continue to argue, complain about actions in the past, or you can just move forward.

    I choose to move forward.
     
  5. Amber Raine

    Amber Raine Community Ambassador (FR)

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    It should surprise none that my first post back after a year of being away is to respond to something of this nature. Good morning, Good Afternoon and Good Evening Avatars, Bienvenue tout la Monde! For those who do not know who I am , great, keep it that way.. for those who do.. As promised, the year is over and I am back ;)

    Now I read through this whole complete waste of a goodbye post. Why do I say complete waste? First, the OP has some solid points.. First of which was -- She/he/they are leaving.. Bye.. see ya.. Audios and take care. Good Adventuring in other worlds and may the light of the rift shine on your backside and draw you back someday with feigned interest to entertain the thought that it is *not* all about the devs not doing their jobs. The devs *are* doing their jobs. You just have to realize that all devs do not do the *same* job, and to see that there are certain ones that are placed to do certain jobs, like any business... The PR guy is not going to write your code, and the Chef working in the lunch room isn't going to write your narratives... okay in some parts of the game I will admit it does look like that... but that is because they let Lum The Mad go .. wayyy tooo early... ((still a huge sad panda over this one.))

    Anyway, the OP tried very hard to say goodbye, point out his/her/their reason and be done with it. It proceeded on to multiple days, weeks, and what I see is an argument I have rolled my eyes at and seen so many times over the past 6.5 years that it does not surprise me to see it rise its hydra head again. What ever do you mean Amber? Well, glad you should ask.. and thank you Bowen and Alleine for stepping up and pointing out most but not all the things in reguards to this...

    DANCE PARTIES WERE CREATED FOR THE COMMUNITY TO HAVE SOMETHING TO DO AND HAVE SINCE THE VERY FIRST ONE BEEN USED TO ***TEST*** BUGS AND GET NUMBERS ON LAG ISSUES AND HOW THE SYSTEM RUNS WITH MULTIPLE PEOPLE DOING THINGS IN ONE CONFINED AREA!!!

    Hence.. it is here for back end game testing as well... Therefore... tada.. Devs being there ARE doing their jobs as they are not only being there to show face to the community, they are collecting data and other useful information needed to keep a world steady should a large number of poeple gather in one place... Easier to do it at a dance party then it is scattered across a vast world where people are not normally gathering together but seperated... This is why at these dance parties we often would see dragons or other various mobs being spawned... These would allow for testing of numbers in the background on how a vast number of players in one spot killing something would stabalize or destabalize the system...

    Dance parties are great... not only to release stress and let things go.. but to see how the system holds up to a lot of people in the same area...

    And who is to blame for dance parties? I saw someone say "Catnip Games would
    **NOT** Catnip games.. These events are player created, the various radio stations across Britannia create these dance parties, From Avatars/Virtue Radio to WRFB and Mystical.. These dance parties are created by players..... Who started the original Dance Party? Who is to *blame* (as some would like to call it) for the very first dance party ever in the history of Shroud? Was it Portalarium? Was it Catnip Games? Perhaps Travian? Hmm... Nope... .But nice try pointing the fingers at them... No for those that fail at this history trivia question.... The very first and hence forth monthly release dance party started January 2014... by? ... by? ....

    By the EXACT SAME PERSON who convinced Darkstarr that being a DJ would be a great idea!! And he deserved to have fun!! Fun that he has admittedly had ever since becoming a DJ in August of 2017 and continues to have, even away from the game duringt RL gatherings and may I just say, he's damn good at it.

    Shroud has always been a sandbox world, similar to Ultima Online where you create your own adventure and make your own stories along side those offered by the team. Do not like what you are seeing happening in the world? Then instead of complaining about it, do something about it. Create the content with the tools you have at your disposal... Don't like dance parties? Do not attend, instead create a crafting party, a PvP tournament, write a quest of your own and send adventurers out to gather your goods. The devs are not here to be pointed at, mocked and treated like they do not do what needs to be done. If you want to point at someone for the failings of nothing to do in a SANDBOX GAME then might I offer you a mirror? Because since day 1 in a room with a chicken, where issues were not bugs but features and FUN was the only BUG in the game (famous quote from Lum The Mad) -- The players drove the community, hence the term "Player Driven Community".

    I have been gone for a year, and as promised a year ago, The Queen of Chaos has returned. I remain standing as proudly now as I did then, behind the choices I have made in this world (including being the reason dance parties exist in the first place and hiring Starr Long on for his first DJ gig in Shroud).

    But as I started this post, and undoubtedly like I have thousands of times before, will be shunned or mocked about its content, I end as I began, I am not surprised it is a post like this, that I leave my first mark upon my return.


    Added: I would like to add, that if you would like an example of another game that has worked like this on a FAR BIGGER budget then Shroud EVER has had... might I direct you to "Star Citizen"? ... MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of dollars invested by THOUSANDS of players and guess waht? All this time later.. they still do not have a game with a story line, all they have are pretty ships you can fly around, maybe if they don't bug out and cause issues. And they have MILLIONS of dollars thrown at them... Shroud has a small budget and a small team and we have a pretty amazingly beautiful world..... Just... to put some of you into a more apples to apples perspective.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
  6. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Can I be the first to say welcome back? :)
     
  7. Superbitsandbob

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    Outside of your, no doubt important role, around Dance Party creation and the now stratospheric rise to the top of the DJ world by Darkstarr, I think you have completely missed the point.

    No one has suggested that they don't like Dance Parties or that they should not be in the game. Your comments about what we should be doing in a Sandbox are really just a red herring. This is not how the game was sold initially and indeed going to the front page and looking at the about SOTA section, it is still described as a story driven single or multiplayer role playing game. In fact sandbox is not even mentioned on the page. A sandbox that is really one, like Wurm Online for example. When you go to their page to see what you are getting into, it is very clear. Everything is player created and they barely give you any content. It is clear.

    Your comparison to Ultima Online seems equally, a big reach with regards to systems and content and more importantly, issue free gameplay. Running UO back in the day on a 28k modem was often a better experience performance wise than SOTA is today.

    The missed point, conveniently or otherwise, is that the game is at a stand still. Systems that need revamping or that were bugged are still that way. Performance is often terrible. Content is put in unfinished along with the other unfinished systems or ones that desperately need help. I visited Mistrendur yesterday to find a barren land full of empty plots and a few scenes that still need work and are just a copy and paste from the old world. For an expansion of a game, this would generally not be acceptable. It's just more unfinished and unpolished content.

    This seems to be the point being made by the OP. Not that Dance Parties don't have a place, but that Catnip seems to place so much emphasis on the store and dance parties whether they organise them or not, when the game still needs fixing in so many ways.

    For every Star Citizen there is a Project Gorgon. A game created by just 2 people for the most part, with varied game systems including crafting.
     
  8. Bowen Bloodgood

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    You are aware that Mistrendur is part of EP2 content yes? Complaining about this now is like complaining Novia wasn't "finished" during alpha testing. If the same is true when EP2 is officially launched, then you might have a case with that.

    I believe you're the one missing the point here.

    Dance parties are player created.. they have absolutely NO affect at all on the development of the game. So the community manager promotes community events, organized and run by the community and some happen to be dance parties. It does not in any way distract the devs from working on the game. If they really have nothing to do with them, how is it that the devs are putting any kind of "emphasis" on them. And no money means no development. Should they just forget about fund raising entirely?
     
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  9. Superbitsandbob

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    My point was that it is more untested, unfinished content put into a game already full of systems and scenes that need revamping or feel unfinished. I think the "this is still in testing stuff" doesn't cut it anymore. Keep episode 2 behind close doors until it feels more finished and get the systems already in the game that need some TLC sorted. It give a very bad impression to players thinking about giving the game a go.

    Re dance parties. I feel you have to be blind to not look at the updates and see that the emphasis on development centres around the store. It's not just about Dance Parties or whoever creates them or organises them or whatever. Its about these and other systems being pushed and time being spent on store items to satiate the minority who are still here for those things. This is definitely happening to the detriment of the other RPG aspects and systems of the game.

    At the end of the day just, bleh. As stated above by Anpu. The game is what it is and you either go along for the ride or get off. Not a healthy point of view for the game to continue with as a development process but there you are.
     
  10. marthos

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    Catnip. Chris stated that 1/3 to 1/4 of the players use Steam (from a Livestream when talking about making it easier for Steam users to make purchases). Steam charts show about 100 users, so that makes it about 300-400 concurrent users.

    Right on, the UO crowd left because the PvP of Shroud wasn't up their expectations.
    The folks who wanted a single player game akin to U7 left because Shroud wasn't up to their standards of a modern single player MMO.
    The PvE folks who wanted a good dungeon crawl/raiding type of game (ESO, WoW, Final Fantasy) left because Shroud wasn't up to their standards
    There are lots of crafters and traders who left due to Shroud not meeting their expectations.

    While the specifics may vary person to person, people aren't playing Shroud because they don't want to play it. They feel there are better games out there to invest their time in.

    That leaves the folks who like fishing, role-playing dance parties, and decorating houses/towns. The OP seems to have nailed it.

    How do we attract those forgotten groups of players to this game? Do we even have the development time, money, and desire to do this - or is a solid housing sim game with subpar PvP/PvE/Crafting/Story tacked on the true end-state of Shroud?
     
  11. Bowen Bloodgood

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    So to rephrase it's basically a perception issue. It just looks bad taking other issues into consideration. However, I'm sure devs might make the case that they need people to test those areas. I would go a step further and suggest they not even work on EP2 at all just yet and put more time into what is already in place.

    No money no development. It's a necessary. But as any dev can tell you, different people work on store content than fixing bugs. More store content simply means fewer free items. Making models and textures doesn't change how the coding is done. It might not even affect world building depending on how the workload is broken up. I fail to see an issue here beyond player perception.

    Again, nothing to do with each other. That is the point and why those arguments won't carry any weight with devs. They'll just tell you different people are responsible for each of those things and one doesn't slow down the other. It's not an issue of one thing distracting from another. It's an issue of having a small team and budget.
     
  12. Cora Cuz'avich

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    Agree and disagree. I think there is a difference between "unfinished/under development" and "bug-ridden/not working." Spindleskog is a good example of both. Putting a scene into the game without any story content while the story is being hammered out is in keeping with the game's history of adding content that is under development. They made the decision after Release that they were going to continue doing things that way, rather than switching it up and only releasing "finished" content. However, releasing a scaling scene without the difficulty scaling, before scaling loot is working, with default garbage loot, and with bugs that caused mobs to hit for thousands of points of damage was dumb. "Under development" or not, I wish they'd try and get better about putting stuff on QA for a release before letting it go Live. Not that it would do much good, since bugs reported on QA are going to Live without being addressed, but at least it would look like they were trying...
     
  13. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Not sure how much faith I put into estimations and Steam numbers at a specific moment but ok.

    My point on them wasn't just SotA didn't live up their expectations.. but that their expectations were based on a misunderstanding which they themselves were solely responsible for.

    To simply say "left because X didn't meet their expectations" is universally true of any game, as is people simply leaving over time for other reasons. It's too vague of an argument to carry much weight.

    Profound and of course true.

    I take exception to these terms being put together! :) (Not to diss dance parties but they've got nothing to do with RP)

    Had a completely different take-away but whatever..

    IMO: With a dramatic shift in focus. And by that I don't mean stop dance parties or store content.. but spending more time prioritizing and polishing existing systems before EP2 content. A full time in-game DM would spice things up a lot too.
     
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  14. Amber Raine

    Amber Raine Community Ambassador (FR)

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    Red Herring? Pretty sure you are unclear on what this term means :

    Red Herring: something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.

    No where did I say anything that was intended to be misleading or distracting. What I said was clear, to the point and in no way misleading. In fact, " okay in some parts of the game I will admit it does look like that... but that is because they let Lum The Mad go .. wayyy tooo early... ((still a huge sad panda over this one.))" was also stated by myself. So... not sure you know what you are stating red herrings, but.. Thank you. I'll take mine as sushi with fresh sticky rice, if you please.
    I was around for Alpha days of UO and beyond for what is it.. 20 years now. I worked beside the team as a GM, I *know* how UO ran. And most days it was a lot of crash, roll backs and frustration. However, when it was working it was fun, player quests and events that kept the world alive and still does today. And not sure you are aware but UO had literally no other story line then what you got from the introduction, the rest of the content and everything else invested into it was created by the players. Last time I checked, Shroud also has an introduction explaining why the world is as it is and how you as a player arrived here. If that is not enough, Shroud also has a book (or more) based around the history of our world.

    Also, where did i at all say - issue free? Pretty sure I did not state this at all. Hmm... were you looking in the mirror when you were offering lunch of red herrings? Just.. curious.

    Did I, claim other wise here either? Do not believe so. In fact, pretty sure all I said in regards to this was... those pointing fingers should not point them at the wrong devs. Blaming the Janitor because the company is in the negative or stating that Elgarion (our community manager) is to fault for the game map being broken... pointing fingers at people and accusing them of not doing their jobs, while being completely inaccurate as to the job they are supposed to do in the first place... shows ignorance. Again, pretty sure I didn't say everything was roses, nope, been saying it for years actually.. "Quote -- I will be surprised if the game lasts for a year" .. call me happily surprised :)

    Again with the "I didn't say that... " you seem to enjoy and be quite proficient in misquoting people. I said -- They did not start them, they do not plan them. Again, stop pointing fingers at those that are not at fault. Dance Parties and the like are community, player created events. Something that Shroud has always enjoyed and given credit to. The community. If you want your event to be talked about by them... Then instead of complaining that there is nothing to do... Do something... and tell them about it.. They, as well as ALL of the radio station in New Britannia will be more then happy to promote it.. Just like they do with everything else.

    Seems, you might be missing the point. You are accurate, by chance, that there are indeed a number of games created by a small group. Some of them turn out great, some of them lacking. However, that was not my point. Point was, Star Citizen has been around for 5+ years.. and they have a budget a million times more then Shroud, they have a task force of developers, and they still do not have a game worth beans. Millions on pixelated ships, that people keep pouring into, broken promises and broken systems (including the ships)... Point was, on a small budget, with a small team, and a strong dedication, Catnip Games/Portalarium busted their butts to give us a beautiful world and there *are* things to do. Dance parties are but one of many things to do. Again, don't like what is offered... then create something and get the community to back it and ask the community Manager to help promote it...

    SO..... ~shrugs~ enjoy your sushi =)
     
  15. Superbitsandbob

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    I did begin a different reply, but then I realised that beyond your own perceived self importance within the SOTA/UO/RG/DS universe and bad quips about sushi, your post is just a bunch of "you are misquoting me" when I never actually accused you of the things you suggested I misquoted you on. :)

    For example, I never suggested you said SOTA was issue free nor did I inquire if you were friendly with a UO GM (I am sure you enjoyed telling everyone though). Merely that your comparison, for me anyway, IMHO if you like, was off because my SOTA playing experience is full of terrible frame rates (often the game reaches such a terrible performance level that when I click out of the game window onto a web page my whole PC is effected or I have to try to move looking at the floor and hopefully get to an area where the framerate picks up above 1) and broken and unfinished systems. Beyond the pain of playing on a 28/56k modem, this was not my experience of playing UO (there are always bugs of course in any open world game but JUST bugs are not what we are talking about).

    Anyway some people are having fun so ce la vie. Good luck to them.
     
  16. Superbitsandbob

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    It's not perception but reality. They are working on episode 2 stuff and putting it in the game in an unfinished an unplayable state along with the unfinished stuff still in episode 1. It's doesn't only look bad, it is.

    Unless I am misinterpreting how the team is now split up, they don't have specific members for specific tasks? They are all chipping in on the jobs that need to be done? Looking at the updates and the amount of new store stuff and changes and bug fixes for store stuff and gameplay mechanics like fishing etc, I am struggling to see how this is not impacting on world building and skill revamps and content creation. This is just based on the fact that it is often said that it is a small team on a tight budget.
     
  17. Elgarion

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    Welcome back Amber :)
     
  18. Amber Raine

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    Thank you Sir or Madam or non-binary however you might define yourself, I hold no self importance self percieved or otherwise, infact, i hold no importance at all.. I just wished to have pointed out where things started and who is to blame for such things... so that the fingers can be pointed accurately and at the right people. I am not above admitting I am wrong or taking fault in something I have done, so the wrong people are not accused of my doings. They do not deserve to be blamed for such. Forgive my leading you to believe I thought anything other then to serve others and not let them fall on the sword that I created. ~bows out respectfully~
     
  19. Bowen Bloodgood

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    As you perceive it :)

    Obviously debatable as not everyone would agree with that assessment.

    There is no team anywhere where everyone does everything. Even if it were true of development in this case, it still has absolutely nothing to do with community events. Elgarion is the current community manager and that task falls to him.. not Chris or anyone else directly involved in development. Elgarion doesn't fix the bugs, create the models or textures (all completely different and unrelated tasks as far as the type of work involved I might add), nor vfx, nor sfx... anymore than Chris or other devs are responsible for promoting community events.

    At what point does that mean that everyone has equally shared responsibility in all things? Do the devs often say they share the same work? Cause that could be extremely messy and inefficient. Each of the jobs they do requires a very different skillset.

    Time. Money. Quality. Universal truth. Every such project balances these 3 things. To elevate two, one must be sacrificed. To improve quality you either take more time, or spend more money. To speed things up you either sacrifice quality or pay more money. To spend less you either take more time or sacrifice quality.

    It's not always an easy balancing act. Players will complain if things aren't delivered quickly. Money isn't always abundant and a high level or quality requires either you spend more money on staff and resources, or take longer to produce. This reality is constantly being tested.
     
  20. CarlNZ

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