This is new...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Barugon, Nov 14, 2022.

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  1. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    What does it do?

    [edit] I mean, what does it do other than negatively affect virtue?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2022
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  2. Anpu

    Anpu Avatar

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    There’s various Monoliths in scenes that can raise or lower virtue. You will need to find them all. The one you found so far, lovers virtue. Just find the one that raises virtue.
     
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  3. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    Okay, so it just affects virtue. Do they all work off of Spindelskog runstones?
     
  4. Anpu

    Anpu Avatar

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    I have not checked all of them, but I believe it works with any Rune Stone. There’s 3 different ones (Ulfheim, Spindelskog and Vikland).
     
  5. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    So... we've pretty much given up on the virtues, then? Or is there more to this?
     
  6. Rinaldi

    Rinaldi Bug Hunter

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    Some additional info that may be helpful...

    I have seen these virtue monoliths in 3 zones so far: Ulfhiem, Spindleskog, & Vikland (as Anpu alluded to).
    The monoliths will either raise or lower one of the 3 virtues (truth, love, or courage).
    Monoliths that raise a virtue will have an up arrow engraved on them - the up arrow looks like this: ^
    Monoliths that lower virtue will have a down arrow engraved on them.

    I never translated the rune on each monolith, and those runes may indicate what virtue will be effected.
    But if you walk into the stone circle at the base of monolith, an on-screen message will tell you the virtue that will be effected and whether it will raise or lower the virtue.

    Clicking the offering bowl will give the runestone to the monolith and cause the virtue change.
    The virtue offering can be done once a day.

    I think the point of interest markers for these monoliths only show up when you are relatively close to the monolith.
    I am not sure this is the case for all zones that contain the monoliths. But, be aware that if you are far away from the monolith, the marker may not show up on your compass.

    Virtue does not seem to impact gameplay very much. I know of only a few things that virtue can effect. The ones I can immediately recall are: ability to enter Jack of Diamonds or Manor of Mystery (neither zone offering anything of substantial interest), shroud color, some NPC responses, Oracle response, and some equip-able item effects (e.g. sylvan gear). None of these are particularly compelling, and I noticed no substantial difference in my experience whether my Avatar was "good" or "bad". I think there is a lot of room to improve on virtue impact on game experience. I have not given up on virtues yet...but, it seems like it is low on the priority list. Perhaps the implementation of the monolith is a precursor to future features in which virtue will have a more substantial impact game play?
     
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  7. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    That's kinda my point; even if they add in more features that relate to virtues, if you can just go raise/lower the stat as needed (admittedly, at once daily, it will take some time) it just becomes another stat to min/max and makes your behavior in the game irrelevant.
     
  8. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    Nope! Look at your Shroud. Mine stats will go up or
    Down based on what I do. I always give a beggar a coin so that virtue will continue to go up!!!!
     
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  9. ConjurerDragon

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    That is one single aspect of the virtue system and takes an action of you to change. Similar how you can decide to avoid waking a sleeping NPC and wait until it wakes up and goes to work, or how you decide if you steal or not.

    However if you can simply do what you want in the game and then *abrakazam* fix your virtue score to the one you want, then it becomes practically a yoyo at your whim and not a result with consequences.

    I can understand that players would want that occasionally, e.g. to visit once Captain whatever in his airship or the Mysterious library the Mystic Mage talks about which require either bad or good virtue numbers. But that what´s Kobold hackers are there for.
     
  10. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    Kinda missed my point entirely, but keep on rockin', dude.
     
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  11. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    100% with the changes not long ago about adding in reset items to the store along with items that allow you to simply change has made the meaning less significant over all as you can correct outcomes. Not sure if @Sannio has larger plans to connect this into faction systems down the road or to perhaps use other flags that are long standing to make it so npc's and other things still know your past. As it stand currently though all these things do indeed make things some what irrelevant short of the quests and things you can't repeat that were already don't with your current virtue at the time. this is a great topic on its own that is important imo. :)
     
  12. Alley Oop

    Alley Oop Bug Hunter Bug Moderator

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    @Sannio can say more but as i understand it, these artificial virtue changes can help you get close to the middle if you're far at one end, but you can't use them to push yourself to the far ends. if you want to be really good or bad, you have to actually do the work.
     
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  13. Duke Gréagóir

    Duke Gréagóir Legend of the Hearth

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    Factions? That will be a waste.
     
  14. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    That makes a bit more sense. Especially given that it's pretty dang difficult to go through the main quest and a lot of the side quests and come out with low stats. Though, a better fix would be giving those quests evil paths to take. (Though I also suspect at this point we won't see big changes like that in e1 quests.)
     
  15. Sannio

    Sannio Lead Quest and Level Designer Moderator SOTA Developer

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    I'll admit that we didn't have a good implementation of mechanics for the Virtues, but I've been trying to add small ways where you can affect all of them over time. Examples of where we went wrong was by having a good way to increase Courage (e.g. killing Cabalists) but no way (at the time) to decrease Courage. Originally, you could get lots of negative Truth by stealing everything in sight but it was much harder to make gains in positive Truth, and it was hard to make changes in Love in either direction. We needed to add more ways to raise and lower all three Virtues.

    Over time, I added small changes to help acquire Virtue changes here and there...
    The most common example is in NPC dialogue, with most conversation choices in newer dialogue adding small virtue changes depending on your choices.

    Giving the beggar some gold always increased your Love, but now dismissing him with no gold lowers your Love (once a day). I added a similar mechanic to the "newsies" in Aerie, except tipping or not tipping them for their news efforts will affect your Truth. A few bartenders will ask about your day, and your response could increase or lower your Truth.

    Courage can be reduced by entering enter the Clink in a specific sneaky way that avoids combat. Courage Club will reduce your Courage by a little if you fail early, but increase it by a lot of you can push through.

    The side activities in Ulfheim are a big deal for Virtues, as there are five of them. The default finale gives positive Courage, but the side activities give you a choice of switching that for one of the other Virtue changes.

    Some of the ways Virtue makes a difference in game mechanics have been mentioned by others in the thread above. Here are some more...
    The Jack of Diamonds "bouncers" and Mages of Mystery look at your Virtue to determine if they want to allow you into the Jack of Diamonds or Manor of Mystery, respectively. (Tip: Go talk to the person in charge of one of the venues to get a quest.)

    There are a few NPCs who will give you a couple of different responses depending on one Virtue or another, but this is rare and I'd like to do more of it.

    At some point I even want to have one or more NPCs that only give you a quest if you have a certain Virtue rating. Not in the way that the Jack of Diamonds and Mages of Mystery quests have gatekeepers, but instead put the restriction with the NPC offering the quest. I've been reluctant to do this because if I disallow you from getting a quest because of your Virtue rating, then I feel compelled to give you a different quest because of that same Virtue rating.

    A lot of players, especially ones that had been playing for a long time, had Virtue scores that were pretty extreme and weren't representative of an avatar that's had balanced opportunities to affect all three Virtues. The Virtue Recalibration Kits were added especially for those players who had extreme Virtue scores and wanted to bring them closer to manageable levels without spending years fiddling with game mechanics that offered only "trivial" changes. (For those who don't know, these kits won't zero out your Virtue. They "clamp" your Virtue down to a less extreme level, making the common "trivial" changes more significant.)

    The new Virtue monoliths are another sort of Virtue "manager" for players. Players can use them to give trivial Virtue changes to their avatar, but only by offering certain runestones which need to be acquired through adventuring. I would prefer adding Virtue changes as direct repercussions for conversation choices and personal actions, but we need more methods of any type for increasing and decreasing all three Virtues.

    Once a day, each monolith adjusts one Virtue up or down, and by a small amount. Vikland, Spindelskog, and Ulfheim each have a set of monoliths. To trigger a monolith, you need to offer it a runestone--a monolith in Vikland requires a Vikland Runestone, a monolith in Spindelskog requires a Spinelskog Runestone, etc.
     
  16. Anpu

    Anpu Avatar

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    In Mistrendur iirc the NPC’s there are using a new Reputation system. As in the more you help them, the more friendly they will be towards you (and opens other quests).
     
  17. Cora Cuz'avich

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    I would argue it was doubly a mistake. With Cabalists being the only source of a number of items beneficial to players no matter their virtue (which also drop very rarely) "bad" players had no choice but to take the courage bump if they wanted to farm Cabalists. It would make more sense if the items they dropped were of little value to low-virtue players, perhaps items with virtue stats that relied on positive virtue. Then there'd be less reason for bad players to want to kill them. (I suppose you could say they were stolen by the Cabalists to be desecrated, and good avatars would want to recover these items.) But everybody can make good use of Wicked King gems, and they are one of the more desirable drops. Not to mention, completists who want the Cabalists hoods and weapons, which are even rarer.

    Courage seems like a big problem in general as a reward for killing something. It certainly makes sense as a result in a lot of cases, but the game kinda makes it hard to avoid killing a lot of stuff. (Well, okay, you can do lots of other stuff besides kill things. But I think we can agree that players who play violent games non-violently are the exception and not the rule.) Cabalists aside, I'm sure more than a few "good" avatars have had to deal with the courage hit from fauns who remain aggressive after their masters are taken care of. (Especially if they're using auto-attack.) Ideally, a courage bump for killing should only occur in quests, and then only in quests where there is also a cowardly option.
     
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  18. vulcanjedi

    vulcanjedi Bug Hunter

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    Jack of Diamonds and Manor of Mystery offer the Kobold Deco Weapon quests. The Sylvan weapon parts like the horns offer +7 weapon damage and +9.9% crit chance which I am currently testing to see if it's better than bronze. I do have an alt with all negative virtue which is easier to play without having to worry about killing things.
    vj
     
  19. FBohler

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    After years of playing and reading forums, I'm yet to see a neat implementation of the virtue system in the game.

    It's one of the "good on paper, bad in reality" things. It's a textbook example of parasitic feature.
     
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