Currency Serpent Isle Style -- (Dev) Replied

I ran a guild for about 7 years.. apparently prior to DKP (and hoenstly this is the first time I've even heard the term).. roster in UO before we left was just over 50 and we never had anything I would describe as an internal economy. So I'm having a hard time imagining how a guild currency would be useful. I don't really see a story reason for it.

Sure I want to keep an eye on who's active within my guild in SotA.. but how world a private currency do that? We already know there's a strong likelihood that we can set up log books for any number of things. I can just look at that and see who's been by.

 

UO never had much in the way of cooperation outside of PvP, primarily because nothing in the game required more than, say, five people to kill, nor did it have just one of those things that you would kill just once in a long span of time. I'm not suggesting this game will be like World of Warcraft, etc., but at the same time, things like shared guild banks are confirmed and large (presumably optional) encounters have been discussed. I understand your argument from a UO perspective, guilds were not necessarily a thing aside from groups of people with a similar goal or who were friends to begin with or something. There was never such a thing as apportionment of rewards or the need to track when people didn't get anything at all to make sure they had a better chance next time.

All that said, if you're looking for a story reason for guild currency or tokens or points or whatever you want to call them, I'm sure the guilds themselves can make up a story for you. The story will go something like, "We needed to track guild participation vis-a-vis our overall goals (raid, pvp, etc.) in order to fairly apportion guild-acquired rewards, and doing it in books or outside the game is tedious, byzantine, and bureaucratic, so we minted special coins and doled them out after guild events so that the players can track them themselves without claims of cheating, favoritism, or other unfairness and then trade them for guild-acquired rarities in an auction-type system and/or also trade them amongst the general membership for rare items or other favors." After all, whether the games supported it or not, this is more or less what happens in guilds in other games, only they've been forced to use the bureaucratic method via pure necessity. This would alleviate a lot of the common problems and complaints people have about DKP. This goes especially if the raid rewards in this game wouldn't be equipment, which it seems like it wouldn't be.

 

Ok thanks. Think I can better wrap my grey matter around the concept. I just don't relate to the idea at all and don't imagine ever having plans where I'd need it but maybe that's just me. I'm sure if the need arose my guildmates would think of something. I guess we'll see.

 

I remember Quixstar mentioned regional currencies in the IRC chat when Chris and B were doing their dev chat back on the 25th, I don't think there was a whole lot of up take on that idea in chat. Obviously this thread is the next step.

I don't see why currencies have to have a fixed exchange rate in this game, but it would make sense to have at least one currency which is accepted by all (or perhaps almost all) NPC vendors. Holding that currency is therefore not risky (we can debate risk another time ).

Forgive my 101 explanation of regional / local currencies:
I don't think this concept needs to be anything grand or complicated or risky. Basically, all NPC vendors in Garriottsburg accept gold (universal currency) AND GarriotGold (the locally minted coins). Outside of Garriottsburg no NPC vendor accepts the coins therefore it only has local scope to that town.

Players on the other hand could accept the currency just like they can accept Iron ore or wood as a medium of exchange.

Dead currencies: neat from an RP perspective. They could even be a rare item which is found in a particular area or on a particular quest, rather than as a junk item (either idea works imo). The next question would be: What would differentiate coins from a dead currency to that of a general rare item? And would the supply be finite and perhaps their discovery is time limited (e.g. Christmas themed rares)?

 

The main reasons I'd like to see local currencies are for complexity, flavor, and community. Now, why would the exchange rate of local currencies be fixed (see also: last section of this post)? Well, probably because the game government will probably issue the currency, and therefore will probably be the involved in the exchange, giving it the opportunity to act as a gold sink in the exchange. Also the currency will be made of physical materials of value, and that's where it derives its monetary value. That said, I find it difficult to believe that people would routinely want to use the local currency instead of common currency if there are no other reasons to do it than "it's there, you can use it".

Having to pay the taxes in local currency would create a big demand for it, since I understand that's probably going to be the primary gold sink in the game. If the town rewards you for service in its name and offers you a choice between some gold coins and an amount of local currency above the exchange rate value of the gold coins, people might want to accept the local currency, especially if vendor prices are effectively equal for gold and for local currency.

An interesting phenomenon to see would be town vendors that only want the local currency so their owners can avoid paying an exchange fee before paying their taxes. Similarly, it'd be interesting to see items listed at the bazaar from far-off regions that are only for sale in exchange for the common currency, as the seller has no interest in that town's local currency.

As for the dead currency, one reason I want it to be "uncommon" instead of totally rare like a collector's coin is so that it can be used as the 'third' local currency from my original post above. Why? Because it presumably can't be exchanged -for-, only sold for the other currencies since no one is 'creating' the coin per se (though in reality the game is generating the coinage for people to obtain). I don't know if the game would or should let you 'vendor' this type of coin, since that would give it a fixed value, but if it wasn't pegged to a value in gold coins, this could make it a hedge against other monetary inflation and might be something that end-game players would actually prefer to buy and sell goods for. I could definitely see it becoming the preferred currency of an underworld town populated by end-game players if it is sufficiently segregated from the rest of the game world by hours of tunnels and terrifying monsters.

 

Well like I said in chat. Local currencies are great for multiple countries. I would like to see how they are going to lay out the world. Local currencies just for the sake of local currencies really doesn't add anything but headaches.

 

Fixed exchange rates:
I can understand why there are reasons for having fixed exchange rates, my point is that I don't see any good reason why that line of pursuit has to be the default option. I won't be disappointed if floating exchange rates are avoided but I'd at least want the devs to consider the idea.


Regional currency:
I wouldn't say they are totally pointless if a universal currency can be used equally as well. NPCs or chests could drop regional currency which can only be spent at local vendors. While the local vendors can also accept gold (or whatever), you would be building up a lot of unspent regional currency if you (e.g.) keep killing NPCs in the dungeons of Brittany but didn't spend it. There can be, as you suggest, some discount for using the local currency although that can imply a fixed rate of exchange.


Dead currency:
The rate at which a vendor accepts for an item need not be fixed, although I appreciate that the rates are typically fixed. Perhaps your (Urganite) original suggestion for dead currency is better (something to ponder).

 

I support this.
It could help your hometown feel of the game and change up how the economy works in different area's.
It may also bring in new skills and ways to play the game.

 

Regarding how vendors and bazaar sellers accept different currencies, I would suggest permitting vendors to accept both currencies, of equal value at the current (if not static) exchange rate. I would then suggest that the seller can optionally choose a preferred currency, so that a percentage or flat amount corresponding to the in-game exchange rate is tacked onto the not-preferred currency, but the exchange is still not done automatically. You'll still need to go to the money changer to convert one type to the other.

That might be good as an option for vendors, maybe at the bazaar sellers can only list items as one or the other or both at flat rates instead of charging an extra fee for exchange.

Here's another idea, but it'd have to fit in with the storyline...how about if the local government decides which local currency to use, if it's not the issuing authority? This would allow smaller cities and the associated towns and villages to align with their important trading partners, or their stronger neighbors, etc. Just something to think about.

 

I love the idea of including elements in the currency system that harken back to SI. Thanks for the link and comments.

I believe we want to have a minimum number of currencies in the game. If their only reason is to convert to another currency at fixed rate, then I do not see the value in the extra complexity. The idea of having regional currencies have different exchange rates is neat, but adds a huge layer of complexity that I do not think we wish to do with the initial episode. It is something we will discuss. The story could dictate reasons for different currencies, but there has been no hint of this yet.

I completely love the idea of guild currencies. At first I was a bit hesitant but equating this currency to a DKP system, really begins to show its values from a system and guild story perspective. Great idea.

Great comments and discussion all around.

 

Gold , Silver , Copper

 

I liked a game that had copper, silver, gold, and platinum pieces...

Platinum was RARE...

it's a 50 level game, 1-20 you are mostly dealing with copper, and maybe some silver, 20-30 mostly silver, start getting some gold, by 30-45 you have a decent amount of gold coming in.. and at level 50 you finally start getting a little bit of platinum. 100 platinum was worth quite a bit. Gold was much more common.. you could always exchange up at a bank, but it costs you.

Really helped you feel like you progressed once you started looting gold pieces and finally your first platinum. since if i remember right the exchange rate was huge, like 1000G (+20% fee, so 1200 gold) = 1 platinum. that might be off.. it might have been 100G=1P

 

@B:

Even if the vendors accept them at a fixed rate that doesn't necessitate that the currencies will trade at a fixed rate. A possible departures from a fixed rate would be if (e.g.) drop rates are different (supply), the currencies are not entirely fungible with each other (convertibility), or if there was a difference in practical terms (demand); perhaps there is a reason to hold gold in preference to silver. What that reason is will be the subject of debate. One natural suggestion is to account for the weight of the different metals but I fear that is the wrong sort of gaming complexity.

Perhaps there is a maximum number of coppers that you can hold? I'm sure many of us can point to games where the size of integers has been a bottleneck, obviously not a feature but rather a 'bug' (yes, could fix with BigInt or whatever): otherwise swap lots of copper for some silver or gold. In such a case players might be willing to over-pay for silver /gold.

I don't think the rates at vendors have to be fixed but just thinking of the possibilities should the dev team go with that.

 

For background on my views, I like the currency system of Odin Sphere. Basically some powerups could be bought if you found specific high value coins in addition to recipe ingredients, but you could also spend the high value coins and get low value coins as change. Made you hesitate if that was the only coin you had since you can't trade up.

Regarding the guild currency, I can see one guild using it as a DKP system or some similar function in PvP with castle assaulting/defending and stuff, and I can see another guild, say an RP guild, handing out just <i>one</i> coin to trusted, senior members, or maybe just people (even non-members) who have made a contribution to a major guild event as a 'token of friendship'. It's all about what people want to make of it.

As for regional currencies, well...I mean, I think it would make sense if you could only pay taxes in the town's own money. Then again, I'm one of those curmudgeon-y types that would settle in one spot and only take the local currency or the dead currency at my vendor anyway.

 

Disclaimer: I don't really expect anyone to read all of this, but since I wrote it, I thought I should post it.

Personally, I think the problem of a "fixed amount of liquid wealth in the game world" has to be resolved before we can readily approach the issue like regional currencies or fixed exchange rates.

All currencies becomes worthless unless the ultimate supply of liquid wealth is controlled, not necessarily capped, in some way. If there are ten thousand players, and only the equivalent of a million gold in the world at any one time, then the money supply may not necessarily be large enough to fully sustain four different segments of wealth drivers.

If everyone has an equal chance to earn the same amount of gold off each mob of the same type generated from nothingness (ie, printing money or gold faucets from mob loot), then the money supply is unregulated and it will eventually spiral the economy into inflation. With fixed (versus variable) exchange rates, all currencies will becomes inflated as it migrates from currency to currency attempting to seek its greatest value. It becomes a superfluous FOREX that will only drive the ever increasing price of goods and services in the world.

If some segment of the game would only accept a certain currency and certain items were only obtainable in said currency, and by converting into that currency a certain amount of value were lost (say a 10% moneychanger fee relative to gold generation of that day), then there is at least some control over the ultimate money supply. Multiple currencies could help control inflation as a game mechanic if implemented properly. However, having four separate currencies for the sake of having them with no destruction of wealth in migrating between them would serve no other purpose than to be cosmetic.

Mathematically, the world needs to control the liquid wealth in order to protect the economy and to even pretend to support things like four different currencies. So this is how I see it:

Total number of gold (liquid wealth) allowed in the world = x
Total amount of gold presently existing as of now = y
Total amount of gold allowable by the system as loot (faucet) in a fixed period of time = n
Amount players statistically average in generation (portion of n, faucet) over the course of 'period' = k
Conversion rates of currencies or taxes (sink) to move wealth into a usable state (items, new currencies, vendor purchases etc) over a given period of time = z
Amount of wealth that changes hands between players = a
Amount that *should* be value 'n' at any given time = i

x - y = n
y * z = i
a * z = k
n &lt;? x
i ~= n
therefore
y 30,000,000 (a) * .33 (z) = ~10,000,000 (i) (not exact)
Therefore -&gt; ~10,000,000 (i) - 10,000,000 (k) = 0 inflation, money stays at 75,000,000 in existence plus or minus a few.

Terminology: a faucet lets gold into the economy from nothingness, trades are values where i convert my crafted good into liquid currency and you give me that currency, a sink removes the gold into nothingness such as a tax or conversion rate.

Portalarium can control the value of Z to allow more or less gold into the economy. Fundamentally, Z controls the numeric value of X.

This is all to say that in order for your idea of currencies to be anything more than an RP or cosmetic device then it must have some involvement in the value of Z to keep it relevant.

 

Typo:

y 30,000,000 (a) * .33 (z) = ~10,000,000 (i) (not exact)

That 'y' at the beginning is a typo.

 

@Montesquieu

You're absolutely right, and I didn't build that in because I thought my explanations were already complicated enough without making it even more obscure. The thought had crossed my mind, but I sometimes fear people won't read my walls of text!

However, you are absolutely correct Montesquieu and it is an astute observation. It can very much be built into the value of Z to control the economy.

On another note: I'd never heard that Machiavelli quote before, but how true. So true.

 

Ummm....

WoW uses many more forms of currency then copper, gold, and silver.

+Archaeology Currency

Draenei Archaeology Fragment ? Dwarf Archaeology Fragment ? Fossil Archaeology Fragment ? Nerubian Archaeology Fragment ? Night Elf Archaeology Fragment ? Orc Archaeology Fragment ? Tol'vir Archaeology Fragment ? Troll Archaeology Fragment ? Vrykul Archaeology Fragment

+Argent Tournament Currency

Champion's Seal

+Professions Currency

Chef's Award ? Dalaran Cooking Award ? Dalaran Jewelcrafter's Token ? Illustrious Jewelcrafter's Token

+PvE Currencies

Justice points ? Valor points

+PvP Currencies

Honor points ? Conquest points ? Tol Barad Commendation

As well as hundreds to thousands of other currencies used as tier rewards etc. t1-t10 rewards....

Guild wars 2 also has a multitude of currencies! Over 25 currencies.

 

The trick to these games is to get away from just the "monetary model" that model should only be used in peer to peer trading as a common currency type.

The best way to support an in game economy is to differentiate currency types based on focus/playstyle look towards WoW for this... They do it brilliantly!

 

WoW works for WoW. But the WoW system wouldn't work without BoP / soulbound gear. As with many games, there's no market for crafting at all. If I could buy ore, smelt it, then sell it back for more (or any kind of crafting at all), I'd consider this an arbitrage opportunity, rather than a value add. In any game like this, unrefined mats are the most expensive because time is not valued and skill ups / flexibility are.

Three kinds of crafting have value in a WoW type game: 1) an extremely rare recipe, 2) something that uses a daily cooldown, 3) a proc craft where something gets better than expected stats.


As I mentioned before, I love the idea of floating exchange rates. So if you have a world with 5 factions (or whatever) and need to switch between them. But this concept just over-complicates things if everything is just gold with a melt value. Why build all the complexity for a shift of a few % here and there?