How to have a free market economy that doesnt inflate out of control.

Discussion in 'Crafting & Gathering' started by Trinidad, Mar 20, 2014.

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  1. Morkul

    Morkul Avatar

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    So paying gold to use someones crafting station to cover the cost of the saw, kelm, loom, etc ,etc are purely artificial? For me that would actually add to the roleplaying factor. It would actually be good if crafting stations you can have in your own home would have a durability that slowly decays so you one day need to buy a new one. This would add to the realism and do not in any way ruin the immersive experience for players, rather the opposite.
     
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  2. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Paying gold to use your OWN crafting stations is bleeding artificial. There's no immersion or roleplay involved in that. Durability for home owned stations isn't a bad idea though.

    I'm not particularly keen on using commissions as a controller. If the vendor takes more then players will simply raise their prices to maintain their profits. The problem here is the vendor owners don't take the hit.

    As for selling to vendors.. I remember there was an idea about finite local economies that would simulate vendors buying and selling their stock. Ultimately the local economies would improve or degrade as a result. If they had surplus stock their available currency would be low since they had been buying goods. That stock gets sold off either to players or the world market over time which would be how vendors earned more money. As opposed to something like UO where NPCs had limitless gold and supplies simply reset every few minutes.

    If NPC prices respond to player supply and demand it gets a little more interesting. If player's are buying a particular reagent for example for 10g from players that NPCs are selling for 12g.. NPCs should lower their prices to 9-10g. I really should look up those old threads I can't remember all the specifics now. *wonders how many times he's going to say 'I really need to look up those threads' before actually doing it*
     
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  3. Morkul

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    The vendor must make money to support himself so even vendor owner will take a hit. But you are right better to use a VAT instead, more realistic and the money from the ar can be invested in different ways to improve the town. Than way you would actually notice of a town where blooming or not.
     
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  4. Bowen Bloodgood

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    Vender commission has always been part of the plan. So I don't really consider the standard commission as a 'hit' per say. Rather raising the commission later on into the game as a means of control is what I'm getting at. Vendors do indeed need to make a living. It would seem odd if they worked for free. :)

    Now if commissions naturally fluxuated as a result of market influences? A rise in the cost of living (whatever makes that determination) for example would prompt a rise in commissions. I'm not sure they'll want to go quite that in-depth thought.
     
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  5. Time Lord

    Time Lord Avatar

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    :oops:
    For further clarification on the Armageddon Spell as it first re~appeared in Ultima Online;

    The spell was only a roomer or myth that it could still be possible within UO to cast o_O
    Back in the early computing days, "Back Doors" and hidden things within programs that could be accessed were all the rage in both fiction book as well as in movies and tech talk. During this time in UO a group of game hackers calling themselves "The Knights of Access" appeared and hack attacked any UO player that they felt like doing so to and there were a few other groups of the same styled hacker groups. So the stage was set for such a roomer to spread and be believed by many.
    Thus this roomer spread quickly through the shards and gained a following on both sides, those who wished to find everything to be able to cast it, as well as those who wished to stop those that wished to cast it.
    The roomer effect of such a casting varied depending on the source of the information/speculation. Some said it was to completely wipe a shard or all shards clean of all characters as well as everything else..... while other roomer was that casting it would cause all housing to disappear or housing as well as all monies and things, yet leaving everyone's characters to begin anew.

    As this spell is advocated here as a possible solution for any inflation or deflation remedy, I would suggest that it would work much the same as a revolution does in many country's history; where the money vanishes because it was a paper supported by an overthrown government. How this solution would work in our game, I see it as being very difficult regents to find and then to find the proper place to begin the Armageddon Spell's casting (Hexahedron Generator appearing somewhere when all the proper regents have been found for it's casting/whatever). Then it just becomes a matter of PvP capture the flag game sort of speak to those who wish to keep what money is or destroy what money is beginning a new.

    *Disclaimer*
    I only advocate the use of such as a fix all should the need arise that our economy sucks for whatever lopsided thing that ever happens to it. Otherwise and until then, we can forever continue to search for economic catastrophic preventions to stave such a thing off for as long as possible.
    "But Revolutions Do Happen" :mad:
    and thus I see no reason to think that our game couldn't have some sort of possibility of it as well for solution.

    *and now back to your regularly scheduled economic argument* :)

    ~Vas Kal An Mani In Corp Hur Tym~ Ya'll ;)
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
  6. Morkul

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    The commision can be adjusted as the property tax changes, then add small changes that follows the price for clothing, food and of course beer and we have a simple but functioning system.
     
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  7. Time Lord

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    ~City & Township Elected Mayor or Governors~

    The binding of people's interest~

    One of the exciting things that was happening back in Ultima Online's "Big Gaming Hit Days" was that it touted a Congress of players that had interest just as our Founders and Benefactors are functioning as now within our many different levels of SotA Forum.

    Because the interest is so great within such a subject as economy is here, Locally Elected Town/City Mayors could provide an added flavor if they were given some small way to divert some funds to this or that within the City/Town community. I say this because, if it's such a hot topic involving the minds of players, then this would aide in community development via more social interest and interactions between players and help bind any guilds for residence within such a political based area of influence. For instance, within Ultima Online, Guild members were scattered across vast distances, yet always wanted to carve out their own places in player made towns. Yet, if there is something of power or influence to be had that would make it more interesting to be in this city or that town, this would cause more need for these guild players to bind to a local area/town/city.

    Yet further back to the topic of economy, the Mayor could have some powers to effect the local economy or flavor of the city in diverting some funds to extra city hosted tournaments to draw commerce, or put on extra guards to reduce crime, or go to add some protective barriers or fences which would otherwise fall to decay.
    I would not suggest giving such an elected Governor any "Dramatic Powers", because the things that he/she can effect could upset the community in a negatively adverse manor. But what I would suggest, is that any elected Governor/Mayor be given "Subtle Powers" that would flavor a town or city with whatever their elected platform of service would have to offer the community, as in things mentioned above, city decorations or any number of things that they had been elected to take care of for the city's people as a whole.

    I say all this, because "if there is such interest in economic matters here in our forum, then that mental interest could provide something more for us to interact with as a political body within the game". Quests are all about mental interests and mental interest with the economy seems a hot enough topic to transcend into some player effect within the world. There could also be a Quest within the Governor's gained term in office so as to add even a more deeper flavor to it all.

    The binding of a community of players and the ability to affect an economy with our shared mental interests seems a Quest all it's own as demonstrated here with this hot topic.....

    So maybe there's something to be had in~game with such...
    "Anyone with any feed back?"
    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
  8. Bowen Bloodgood

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    hmmm while not entirely unrelated the subject of player governance is quite a different beast and player elected officials is an entirely different and very messy can of worms. Players have a way of disappearing for undetermined lengths of time and it is not uncommon for many of those to do so without notice until if and when they should return "oh btw I had some stuff going on"

    While I do think it would be cool to support player governments.. whatever system that would be put into place and what powers they might have to affect their townships should be very carefully planned and a subject for another discussion. :) Which incidentally has come up a few times but while there is interest those discussions never seem to last very long. Perhaps it is just too early to get into that?

    That said however.. you may recall RG talking about player towns with the introduction of Braemar in the last pre-Alpha test. It would seem that there will be some untold number of areas that will be.. or at least can be as needed.. placed in the world with little or no pre-existing NPCs settled. Having say.. 40-50 plots in the woods that are cleared when settled but only 20 or so could be taken.. thus player towns.

    Where there are player towns there will be player governments.. at least among the RP community. So it will be interesting to see what kind of support they will see.
     
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  9. Time Lord

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    Governors;

    The duties of such within a "guild town" is nothing like what the duties of any real world. Governors of "guild towns" do little but attempt to organize itinerary of gatherings and handle players personal interaction problems.
    What I would like to explore within any elected official's capacity, is something that would more closely fit what any real world governing body or person's responsibilities are, which is "mostly about the economy". I'm not suggesting that any taxes be raised or lowered by this person, but the possibilities of them effecting the community threw funds provided to any city's Governor's game allocated fund. But all in a economy based effect.

    In the world of any game, most of the prices of things are dictated by whatever pricing parameters that are written within the program. Thus a "Dictatorship".

    Has the town become more agricultural in it's base population and thus believe that the price of seed is too high which would give rise to that communities funds to possibly be applied to lowering the price of seed through allocating funds for it's price to be lowered "within that community".
    Are there more tailors, requiring more sheep production subsidies.
    Is it a blacksmith town who wishes that local NPC armor prices were raised which would cause the local player blacksmiths to be more sought out for armor than that which the NPC offers.
    Is it a township of more warriors, or mages desiring more from their town in the way of goods from NPCs such as more arrows available....etcetera...

    All of these things could become effected to the tune of 10% by a Governor's set of control features at his ingame desk, yet with a very limited fund or ability to effect only a certain few things. "Price Up, Price Down, Special Event Tournament (yes/no), Special Town Banners to appear around the area (yes/no) Extra Guards (yes,no) Saving Funds for Future Administration/Allocation (fill in the amount). New cloths for the more poor NPC's (yes/no)
    and everything that was effected by the elected Governor would be gone as soon as he/she is elected out or has been missing for 10 days. Thus the Governor's been gone for 10 days so it's auto election season again. "Post is unoccupied with no player running for the office" Then the town goes about being just as normal as if it never needed a Governor... just as they are now...

    Any real Governing, is always about the economy and not about scheduling parties... yet that too could be voluntarily done, just with no funds that are all allocated by the Governor's desk/workstation. Anything else, and it's just about people talk and scheduling hunts.... which in the real world, is done during their off time away from the desk and has nothing to do with the economy or governing anything.

    Most shards of UO have available a gozzilion regs or arrows, or armor for purchase which directly effect their own economies.
    Everyone that plays a game for a long, long time gets ingame rich, always.
    Most pay games have a fixed computer game base that regulates most everything economy related as it's dictator.
    LB and Portalarium are no different and do have a set of their own which we will encounter.
    The key to this proposal of mental endeavor into players having any say or directly effecting their local economies, is to provide some portal to which they can "think" that they have some sort of input or effect to their local economic environment. And if we had the chance to do so, then by doing so, we open up a quest within local city environments.

    Of course we are now talking about SotA game release 2 or 3, possibly a G4 issue whenever we talk about the economy here in the forums. yet we will never have any effect or the ability to effect unless that effect is a localized Government given real, subtle powers, that could enhance our gaming environment through it's local economy.

    ...I don't know what that would look like...
    "That's why I'm asking for input here". Or are we just talking about how to try and change the minds of the true dictators?
    ...who have already made up their mind...

    ~Time Lord~:rolleyes:
     
  10. vjek

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    It's possible to achieve the same goal without the artificial adjustments. Just make everything except fuel has no vendor sellback cost, including everything that's looted or harvested. Then, require fuel (or similar) to turn all of those items into things that are useful, and have the sellback cost of those be exactly the fuel cost. Have the only direct source of currency be completing scenarios.
    (the crafter-only playstyle, and other details, are covered here)

    Start with that, and you can avoid the infinite-gold-taps problem that SotA (and every other game that has it) will have.
     
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  11. Morkul

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    To have players to be elected to run city economics will never work even if it's a limited function. Corruption are a huge problem in real live and with anonymity you have in a game like this will that be even worse.
     
  12. enderandrew

    enderandrew Legend of the Hearth

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    Money sinks can stave off inflation as well.
     
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  13. Jivalax Azon

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    If I would only listen to Timelord I would keep out of this discussion entirely, but those of you who know me, know I am not overly wise. Sorry.

    The whole issue of rampant inflation seems a bit odd to me. I have to say I agree with Primerib in that most of the games I have played did not really have a problem with inflation. Did we all get stupid rich in time? Yes. But, there was always things to do with it. When we had 650 million dapper (perhaps 1000 times what a well off player could expect) we commissioned 50 maxed sets of armor and another hundred of various styles and qualities. The maxed stuff we passed to all guildies as a holiday gift and then passed out the other hundred to newbs so they would have something decent to wear. Now, I know we are more generous than some, and if somebody wants to wallow in their wealth like a dragon - well - good for them. They payed to have the game too. If just being uber wealthy is the way somebody enjoys the game, ok.

    But I assume the OP isn't talking about those who spend stupid amounts on things to give them away or even those who horde it all up and skinny dip in gold coins. It's about ruining the economy. The solution is simple and already planned. Wait for it ... it's super complex and only works in computer games and not in the real world ... Things Break Down! Oh wait, it's exactly what happens in the real world. As long as people buy new swords, use them for a while and then the weapon breaks, there will be new swords bought. Money will move and items disappear. (I know, but where does the money go? To vendor maintenance and that new castle that every crafter wants.)

    Is this over simplistic? Yes. Because in the end, it's a game. Most people won't play it for 10 years. Most people play MMOs for 6 mo or less. For those of us that do stay, we will get rich. Because in the end, being poor sucks. If I wanted to just be poor, I wouldn't have to play a game!
     
  14. Dadalama

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    I couldn't imagine grinding for 8 hours. Do you find that fun?
     
  15. Bowen Bloodgood

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    @Jivalax One of the major problems I see.. is that the last stated train of thought is that swords WON'T break. They will degrade and need repairs yes BUT (and this one really chaffs my hide) repairs will be artificially increased over time. The more you repair the most it costs.

    Not only do I believe this system will cause behaviors not anticipated by the team such as switching back and forth between "Good" and "Every day" gear while players save up to get good gear replaced.. but eventually the world economy simply won't have good demand for "soft" (degradable) goods. The economy NEEDS soft item breakage or some other means to permanently remove items to stimulate demand.

    The idea behind increasing repair costs is the assumption that players will eventually "retire" their good gear in favor of new gear.. but with the concepts of weapon affinity and gaining small bonuses with usage (ie +1 troll slaying for killing 1000 trolls) a lot of players (PvPers especially I suspect) will prefer to use their best with little or no risk of loss. It would be a choice between working up new gear to same level as the old (and then probably swapping back and forth between the two) or repairing the old gear. Which ever is most cost effective. Either way the result is stagnated demand.

    Then at one point is repair costs capped? If it's capped then players will just adjust their finances to keep using their best stuff. Eventually they'll get to the point where they'll never need new gear. If it's not capped then it gets ridiculously high.. maybe they'll eventually retire the items but what then? Not everyone will have a house to put them on display. Sell them to the world economy? What happens to their repair costs then?

    Imagine a new player finds an item in loot. It's a great sword that's been used for a long time by another player.. trouble is it's useless to them because that player never repaired it and the finder can't repair it either. You've got your epic crafted sword of troll slaying and no one can use the darn thing because of the repair costs and not every home owner wants to collect such things.

    Then.. what if you have a crafting station in your home. Do you still have to pay ever increasing repairs? When it's your skill and YOUR crafting station? How much would that be NOT FUN? But if player owned stations don't have this problem it will drive everyone away from the public stations. No one will use them for repairs to avoid the costs.

    Now granted. These very early thoughts regarding crafting were.. well.. very early on but to date there have been no statements on any chance. Rather the problem they're having with breakage is that they really, really want crafted items to have some meaning and retain history and breakage basically destroys the history of an item. Personally I don't see why the two concepts can't co-exist. They just have to be willing to except that some of that item history will be lost. This too is natural.

    No one is saying breakage has to be frequent but it is (imo) needed. Though the finer details of that topic probably belong in another thread.
     
  16. Trinidad

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    1st I am not confusing inflation with rising prices. I am aware that inflation is an increase in the supply of money. I am measuring the degree of inflation through the price mechanism.

    2nd my suggestion achieves the same effect of repairs taxes ect. only with out being robbed (your life being stolen literally) through taxes.

    3rd I like Milton but his school (The Chicago school of Econ) is a strange hybrid of the Austrian School (the one I advocate) and the London School (Keynsian) that isn't coherent. I find Mises and Hayek to be much more useful in understanding Econ.

    It isn't really about the money. Ultimately it's the stuff we are after. If you want the game to be a success long term and want new players to come into the game where prices are not inflated into space making it that much harder for late commers then my approach is the way.

    To the degree that I spend my life playing the game I want to play for my own enjoyment. I do not want to be grinding to upkeep my virtual property. I do enough of that in real life.
     
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  17. Trinidad

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    No paying for materials and equipment is reasonable. I think equipment should break down over time. What is not reasonable is paying 10,000 gold for no reason other than it is the top teir weapon and the dev team lacks the creativity to fing other ways for money to exit the economy.

    The crafting community in UO was robust and Darkfall crafting community was by comparison nonexistent. Largely due to the cost associated with being a crafter. This wasn't a good arrangement for the crafters either. I never paid more than cost + materials the entire time I played the game because the crafter was happy to have the opportunity to gain a skill point at another persons expense.
     
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  18. Trinidad

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    I agree but the are usually not sufficient in and of them selves.
     
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  19. Parallaxe

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    There's a site with very interesting thoughts on MMO economies, including reports from different GDC discussion rounds on the topic. It also covers aspects like money supply and player sales: Flying Scythe Monkey
     
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  20. PrimeRib

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    As I've said before, I could imagine different factions (even if they're player run) having different economics. In Lineage2, this was modeled by whatever lord of the town setting tax rates and the buy / sell prices of "seeds" and "fruit" for the manor system. But games like Sim City and Civilization were more advanced. Perhaps a faction pays everyone's insurance and repair costs...but get their funds in other ways.

    I always hated macro economics. It seems useless for predicting anything, but I guess it's fun when you get to "play benevolent dictator" with a virtual economy. Micro makes sense to me...but as I've said before production of goods needs some kind of time based throttle on it or crafting isn't a value added activity.
     
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