psychology / anthropologie of MMO PK combat.

*** WALL OF TEXT ***

Warning this is a very long thought on MMO combat and the evolution and effects to the people and games that have come along to try and solve MMO COMBAT.

*** THERE IS NO BASHING HERE ***
*** Please for give my grammar***

I have been a UO player from beginning till just 2-3 years ago when I sold my account.

My chars have been BLUE, GREY, and RED. I am a crafter, a decorator, a PK hunter, a thief, and YES a KILLER!

I will start with the quick evolution of Ultima and how it turned into UO and the people that came from those games and why there was/is such a love hate relationship with Player VS Player combat and what the game WAS and IS today.

So Ultima was a wonderfully game where you had a virtue system that was prominent through out there games. Honor, humility, valor... so on and so fourth. A system of values those that joined UO in the beginning knew these Ultima games, knew the virtues, wanted to be the good in the world and do good things.

However as the first MMO and hearing of such a game a lot of none Ultima Players also wanted to see this new game style after all there really wasn't anything like UO out there. They did not know the 20+ years of background, they didn't know about the virtues.

One upsetting part in the beginning of ultima was even tho the virtues where shown in the world they never did anything in game until a much later date.


How the Anthropology and psychology comes into this.

Ultima was a HUGE world at the time and new. There where know guides yet, no quick websites to look up what you needed, no set hunting grounds. Everything you wanted to know... you needed to know, you had to communicate with another actual human being in the game. You actually had to type and hang out with and do stuff with others to see if you where missed something, or could figure out how to get from point A to B and someone would 80-90% of the time would help you do it.

NO WORLD IS PERFECT.

There is always bad eggs. Every great novel has a conflict. Every jedi has a light and a dark side. There was quite a few good rings but one ring ruled them all. Enough of my Dorkeness you understand where i am going with this.

* a simple example not involving PvP YET*

I remember my first stress in the game when I went to go get my armor repaired. Now how about this for interesting communication in a game. People couldn't just go repair armor you had to find someone a person a real life person that was a smith. Then place your armor in a bag and actually hand it over to them. Then that person would repair it and hand it back!? My mind was blown that was so cool yet scary!? So i went to the smith shop in town that had some NPCs that sell basic stuff. Yet there was a person yelling out to the crowd of adventures "repairing all armor tips welcome!" "WOW cool" I thought to myself. He told me to please wait in line and he would get to me. Finally after a few repairs it was my turn, handed my bag over he looked it over repaired stuff gave it back. I tipped him, it all worked out awesome! But it was a cool interaction that has disappeared from the game world entirely and has actually made an MMORPG less of an MMORPG. The RPG i feel is the most interesting part.
There was a bad side on this same event and i will explain that but how in the end there is always more good then evil.
I go to the smith a month later after adventuring and I need more repairs there is a new smith in town. Yelling same thing "repairing all armor tips welcome". I hand over my armor in a bag and he jumps on his horse and takes off... I think to my self well what just happened. I just had my armor stolen. Gone no more have to get a new set. Totally annoyed want to quit game but here is the interesting MMORPG part. People told me later oh yeah that guy you gave armor to is a know thief!? People told others not to give armor to that guy. Actual communication. Another interesting part people would actually wait for the REAL SMITH to log in and get repairs from him! How cool is that.

Now i know some of you go "well i don't want to wait all day on a smith." People had second sets of armor to adventure with while first was ready in a bag for repairs. Best part was when the smith was in every one would say "SMITH IS IN AND REPAIRING IN TOWN!" Was very cool every one would then go and see him.

Again in this day in age that sort of communication and people interacting with people is no more. And to me stuff like that was what made UO as an MMORPG so interesting.

NOW BERFORE I LOSE YOU I KNOW YOU ALL WANT TO TALK COMBAT! PVP! PK KILL KILL KILL!

So I was a Blue in the beginning. I went to the cross roads to fight reds, Dread lords back in the day. Was a fun time. Most of the time there where more Blues then Reds and we had the protection of town guards if the Reds pushed us back. It was a fun comabat. People would go to bank and recruit many an adventure to push the reds back eventually breaking them.

Let me go back to the virtues. More people where good people you wanted to be virtuous its just sort of the community of the game that ULtima made. Here is what started to happen with a few years of passing of course more people heard about this game and some of these people wanted a PvP game and well they got it! To the upset of a few people. I have to say I didn't mind, I liked the fight. I also role played a protector, I would hang out with miners when I wasn't actively seeking reds. The miners would pay me well and where also smiths to repair my armor so it worked out great for me!? Again another person actually talking with a person for protection purposes kinda cool.

Reds start getting out of hand. It starts to not feel like a world with a few bandits but a world in anarchy reds are everywhere you cant go outside the bubble of town guards. This is where I can see it annoyed the crafters casual players of the game. I my self was still a hunter of reds but I did it differently. If you went outside town guards it was suicide there would me 5-7 REDS every main road ready and waiting. I would go to the dungeons and fight monsters and find the reds that fought in these dungeons. A more 1v1 fight. I remember my hands shaking with adrenalin those days it was very intense.

THE PART PEOPLE MAY HATE.

I went RED. Yep I turned took me about a year of game play maybe 2 when I decided after trying to help so many and killing so many reds I would become one. It might of been my age I was 17-18 cocky. People always said reds where the best players and I was killing a lot so why now become one. It was great!

"So much reward with little lose". THAT WAS THE PROBLEM WITH UO!

There was no down side to being a RED in the beginning. Also no reward for being Blue and virtuous. If you where a new player with no knowledge of the game why not just become red. This was what was happening to the UO world. There was no law no system to put a red in check. Not till much later when the damage was already immense.

You where a new Blue to the game good luck getting out of a town. It was a horrible experience you where stuck in little towns, and you knew there was a massive world out there that you couldn't see. You died, you lost a lot and it was hard to make it back because with out armor you couldn't go out and kill stuff to make money to get more armor. Yet a red they would kill you, get your armor, and money, and just keep it in his house out in the woods HUGE BONUS for reds and none for blues :-(.

Checks and balances that came in a little to late.

Bounty board. This was awesome! If you where a Blue and died to a red you could take gold out of your bank and put it on there head! You created a new feature in the game and Blues got excited to fight Reds again because now some reds where worth amazing amounts of money!

RED STAT LOSE: HUGE! I wish this stayed. It was to close to the release of tram so it only lasted maybe 6 months. I died during this time and let me tell you I deleted my red after because the stat lose as a red is near impossible to build back up to PvP quality. This brings me to people arguing over PKing or NO PKing

PEOPLE will be UPSET:

The balances where never made for blue players until much to later in the game. When they finally did make the changes they made them very quickly and over exaggerated. I feel that is when the game fell apart, and ceased to be an MMORPG and just an MMOG.
Stat lose for reds thats mean?! Yes I was upset, but you know what I needed to be upset to see both sides of the coin! But you know what Blues where upset way longer. I feel everyone needs to be a certain degree of bummed out.

Example: Dieing in Mario when your so close to Bowser that kinda of upset not quit the game upset.

If you always cater to one side guess what the game becomes one sided. When something is one sided there is no communication because there is no need to communicate with the other side. How do you roleplay a perfect world lets go out and hunt those reds...oh wait... there not on this plane. Same thing goes for the REDs.. lets hunt adventur... oh wait they are off in a new world.

Im going to close with this.

I personally would love a totally open world PvP. It just makes since. There are bad guys and good guys and some in between.

However we need Balance and checks. If your going to be a griefing little monster that NO ONE likes when you finally die I hope it destroys your world.

As for if you play by the world rules and hunt the bad people you should be rewarded and rewarded well. That is what makes a good game. It also in most worlds alternative and real makes sense.

I have thought about this over all the game universes i have played and i miss that world experience so much.

Thanks so much for reading this.

Dread lord Bill gates, Glorious Lord JiM AnGeL, Thief fred, Smith/Tailor Illig and a few other chars I have forgotten.

 

I dunno why all you people don't just say "I love killing people even noobs and it's how I get my kicks", instead of prefacing it with a wall of text or going "WELL I'M NOT A PK BUT..."

 

You didn't read my post at all. If your a red you will be punished for being one. please read post then respond thoughtfully. That was the point of the detailed conversation.

 

OK I read it in it's entirety and it still comes across the same. You mention things like the bounty system that didn't work (see another forum post elsewhere for why it didn't and why it won't), and statloss which is just bad design (it's a time out and even if you're a PK, you shouldn't be forced to sacrifice time which may be as precious to you as it is to the PvMers).

I could go on but I won't and it's a moot point given the current dev stance anyway.

But seriously, just admit you wanna be able to kill anyone you come across at whim. Repeatedly.

 

Ashlynn, it is save to say that i like you? You say what we all think. At least the ones who dont wanna kill everything that cant run away quick enough.

 

It's interesting from a historical perspective, but doesn't apply to SotA PvP, which is purely consensual.

 

Good for nostalgia, and to be fair, I did experience UO during the early days and I know exactly how you feel, but it just doesn't work anymore. The second a game goes live, if it has open PvP it will deteriorate immediately into all "reds" everywhere all the time with people who don't want to PvP *never playing the game at all*. Why bother setting up a system of punishment (and hopefully compensation for the victim) that very few people will agree is 'fair' when you can just make it opt-in/opt-out?

It's a no-brainer at this point.

 

People in the beginning didnt even see it as PvP, it was these red bandits out side the city. A balanced system is a interesting system a RPG has bad guys! You need bad guys! But also in any world there is LAW, cities and towns have a king have guards. There is a game coming out i wont say name from a korean team and it actually has a judge jury system and JAIL for a player griefing. Again if your going to be an pain in the butt then guess what you may go to jail! (people say this will never make it to the american crowd but i hope it does)

Anyways on to some balances

GOOD GUY player (Blue).
Free roaming in game.
Bonus gold/fame for killing a red
ability to bounty board someone that killed you
First hit on red does 25% more damage
(reds always got in first attack and it was brutal the tables need to turn)

BAD GUY player (red).
Limited roam outside towns no access to banks all items must be stored in house.
Killing blues makes you a target by anyone and everything forever.
If killed by a blue player 10% stat lose YES! STAT LOSE you grief you die you pay end of story.
First strike on a blue player does no damage.
(reason I say first strike that was the worst part about being attacked by a red they always waited till you where in combat and then attacked you out of know where when you where down on life)

Now I will know when I have found a nice clean balance when the reds start complaining. That is not fair! You cant make me not use a bank. First strike does no damage!? What if he hits me first! 10% stat lose ill quit playing!

The problem is the out and out "NO" response. NO, no pvp. Its always from the more honorable players believe it or not. But instead of just shutting down the option all together what if we made it so it was beneficial to be the GOOD GUY. OH WAIT! IT SHOULD BE! you play by the rules you should get bonuses. That is the point im trying to make. Yet I really feel there needs to be a little adrenaline every now and then of a random out of blue POSSIBLE attack.

There will still be guild vs guild pvp where none of those balance rules would apply or tourny fighting where those balances wouldnt apply. Its just when someone is out and out trying to be evil that the balances come into effect.

Now what do you think?

 

I love PVP/PKing (I've never Pked once, I know weird,eh?) the reason why I like it is because i saw how the community formulated it's own tactic to battle against it, it became a true world that fought against those people, always warned people what roads to avoid, or to watch out in nearby caves..then some guy would come in with a horse and dismantle the PKer...it was living breathing world with no dev interfence..but of course like i said in other threads eventually they collapse and catered to the carebears and thats why ultima online sucks beyond belief right now along with a plethora of other obvious reasons.

 

I agree ASH, wall of text and nothing really said.

 

There are many types of pks. The worst kind of player to me is the one that hides behind his color. Like the blue guy who loves to be rude and yet won't in engage in combat. Until he has his buddies. I can't stand that type of player. They are in every game and they hide behind the flag system. But in UO I just killed them and that shut them up.

 

Well I actually enjoyed reading this wall of text. Nice trip back to UO times and i do have to agree with Jim that blue/red system with balance system would be a dream. Reward the good doers and take some perks away from PKs. Maybe even send npc bounty hunters after them once in a while.

Now i know the pvp will be consensual and no i never played PK character myself before but i'd love to have a system that keeps you on your toes. For me it get boring when there is nothing to lose and no risk involved. And i really do believe it is possible to achieve a system where it is fun to pvp on both sides.

And by the way, i miss those days also when you actually communicated in game with other people (asking for a party to do a dungeon doesn't count)! Almost forgot how it felt, thanks for that.

 

What is needed is to control the red overpopulation as this is what breaks the camel's back. Nothing wrong with danger from other players, but once the numbers are such that everyone else is affected then it becomes abusive.

How do you control population? by removing the incentive to abuse. Imagine if the bounty system was set such that once past a certain bounty amount the next kill was a permadeath kill; this would be a strong incentive to moderate recklessness and would also serve to keep the "bandit" population in check. It still provides for a free for all, but also has meaningful consequence for excessive behavior.

Mind you, SotA will not have an open world so the points are moot, however it is an interesting discussion.

 

Hey Sanctus, Npc's are a PvE thing. Lets keep the pvp away from the PvE. The blue/red system rocked but any permanent loss to a character, pk or not is a bad idea. I would never want to go PvE so I could pvp again.

 

@Sanctius Thanks for reading I miss UO so much I always look for a game that will remind me of it to no avail.

Another great thing about the bounty board as a check and balance. I remember that I always PKed alone because I got so paranoid to PK with other reds. Figured they might kill me for my head. Another truly Chaotic Evil thing. You where never safe because money is money and no red was going to pass up on someone with a lot of money on his head.

Also I lived beside a PK hunter and we use to fight every time I recalled back to my house. One day we both started yelling stop stop stop. Both of us at the same time it was funny because it took a while for us to both stop between swings and restarting the fight. Finally we both ran opposing ways and talked to one another from afar. The conversation went something like... " hey we live next to one another right".? ME "Yeah i see you all the time around here". HIM "could we please call a truce as much as we always end in a stale mate its just painful." ME "im glad you said something because its impossible to kill you!" HIM "yeah same too you."

It was a funny moment and also great we hung out a lot after words and helped each other when we could. He was a blue and when ever some blue was griefing him (taking mining spots or killing his mining pets) He would call on me and I would help him out. Imagine that a red helping a blue! Good old UO no one would ever think something like that could happen now a-days a hired mercenary.

 

@Red

I don't see why NPCs cannot be mixed with PvP world, it's been done is several games. In UO guards could attack player killers when they ventured near town. In WoW when you attacked other factions capital guards were fighting you. In both cases it was usually real players fighting each other with NPCs added to that.

I do agree that permanent loss is a not an appealing idea. Temporary stat loss or whatnot is fine but i do like the idea of not being able to use town services for example. Maybe there could be a remote rogue town like Buccaneer's Den or something like that for reds.

@JiM

Yeah, it was unbelievable what people could come up in UO via real interaction. I wish this game can grasp even a little bit of that magic back.