Rent Free housing - KS/grace period only? -- (Dev) Replied

they are limiting the number of pledges allowed to pledge at those tiers just the same as during KS, so only 1500 village level plots can be sold, 400 town level, and 40-70 city level (depending on if the duke and lord of the manor count as city level or get their own spot) ..

based on the fact that they, early on said, a few thousand village, a few hundred town, and a few dozen city plots will be in the game, then they doubled the map size(4x as many hexes) so we can likely figure there will be tons of open space still once the game fully released, probably not even half will be gone.

Housing will still be in shot supply though, I don't expect there will be more than 20,000 possible spots and I'm sure this game at minimum will have hundreds of thousands of players. They have a few ideas of how they will release housing so even late comers might have a shot at getting a house. One of the ideas was a lottery system, allowing new deeds to trickle in over time.

Once we get to EP5 many people will finally have houses though, so it will become less scarce as expansions are released. (I'm hoping with each new expansion we get first shot and the new area for house placement too.. but that hasn't been promised, we might have a land rush over there)

 

@Sir Mishi: thanks for the clarification. I was not aware of the limits.

Actually I am not aware of too much at the moment - the Oxycontin pain killer for my little hospital adventure last week has induced the Fog of War in me little brain.

So to all the readers of this post - as the ever famous Emily Litella would say: "Never Mind!"

(note to self: post no more until Wed when the meds are gone!!)

 

Responding to all comments since my post in hopefully correct order, but not directed at anyone in particular...

>OK, (Deep breath) where to begin?

ok, deep *sign* in return...

>Do you not want the funding to continue for this game? Honestly, I thought they removed too much from the
>higher end pledges.

maybe yes, maybe no, depends on the what the end product will turn out as; it's not always the case that the more money is invested, that a better product is obtained - as can be seen by the mainstream developers and publishers.

>Look over at Star Citizen, they are close to 10 mil ! How? Well they didn?t depreciate, to any great extent, the >value of their pledge tiers after kickstarter. A reason I just gave them a few hundred myself.

apples and oranges - who can really say why some things are popular and others (seemingly just as good) turn out not to be...or the opposite (Justin B to be a case in point). It may be that SC broke 10mil because there are far many more space exploration/fighting sim fans than any other category out there - I know a few others (e.g. Elite) are doing well as well.

>I don?t give a damn if post KS the tiers remain as is, as long as we get more and more $$$$$$. A few perks I?m ok >with, but lets not diminish the value too much where we don?t get new pledges.

good for you, an that's your opinion. i have mine as well; and i daresay mine is comparatively more valid because of the stated perks which were stated in the KS campaign which people contributed to is expected to be kept.

>Who the hell is gonna pledge over $500 for no house? LOL

I didn't say no house, my consternation was regarding the rent free and commission free aspects of the house.

>Don?t forget, Early Backers will gain priority house placement vs Post KS too.

they do (sarcasm)? maybe now they do, but if P continues to go back on what they say, then even this can be called into question.

>GD ? will they? They already took away what was to be a unique KS backer reward.

>@Duke : What are you referring to that they took away?

>Oh, NVM, the rent free part lol

LOL, ROTFL, LMHO, PML, HA HA HA, Tra La La la La!

>I am also disappointed rent free isn?t a KS exclusive; although I don?t think Portalarium every said specifically it >would be. It would be a nice thing to be exclusive, or at least see a time limit on the rent-free status of post-KS >deeds. However, the new Tiers do cost a little more.

the KS pledge text has been quoted above, and my simplistic reading of it strongly translates to this for me.

>In the end, as long as I get my rent free deed and some good placement I don?t mind if the game continues to >reach goals and get good funding.

good for you, obviously you're more enlightened than I. but it' not (only) that others (that come late to the party) get the same perks as I do, it's the fact that P seems to be whittling away their own integrity...

>wondering how closely people read the differences between the new and old tiers. Effectively the new tiers are >the ORIGINAL tiers before all the extras were added and I have to ask what would make any of you shell out $550 >if you DIDN?T get a house? Its not going to happen

again, not saying no house...just not any of the supposedly KS only perks

>They don?t get the vendor, they don?t get priority placement, they don?t get the upscale house, they don?t get the >waterfront house and they have to pay more for the privilege. Seriously I don?t think there is any reason to >complain
YET... (and even some of the things mentioned are not specifically ruled out, they are just not mentioned at all, so it can go either way further down the track).

>I don?t mind at all that they get rent free houses and comission free vendors, they are paying an extra $50+, >getting far fewer perks.. just read through that list of awesome stuff we get and the wont. I think it?s a well >balanced mix of removing unique things and leaving somethings intact to make them desirable and worthwhile.

again, I guess I'm just not as mature as you

>I get an expert crafting table and they don?t Woohoo! Glad I pledged early. Also the waterfront properties will be >unique to us, how awesome is that? pets and/or servants as well. neat really cool stuff there that will be unique to >only around a thousand of us. This game will likely have hundreds of thousands of players. We should be happy >that we got the opportunity to get all of these unique and rare things.

again, YET...if things can change at any time, then they can change even more before the game goes live in 18+ months time.

>@Gunga Din: I do apologize if my post came off as some kind of angry rant. I certainly want the contributions to >keep rolling in.

my posts could be construed as more of a rant than yours, but then I don't believe in being overly politic for the sake of trying to sound nice - sometimes it just isn't worth it. Being blunt sometimes yields better results.
it's pretty simple to me: stick by what you say.

>Bottom line, it would be nice to see the project owners more clearly state which rewards will absolutely not be >offered in any form after the campaign. Right now, a contributor cannot be sure just how exclusive any particular >reward might be.

completely agree. ^ this.

>Again, not an angry rant, just some observations and personal opinions. I have full confidence that this will be a >great game and cannot wait to start playing (I am still playing UO!).

Also my hope.

>@Ghii : No problem mate. I only recently discovered Kickstarter projects as well, but from exploring how other >games have handled the Post-KS campaign, I just have differing views.

again, good for you, but it would go down better if you didn't mock or disregard the opinions of others if they don't aligh with your own views.

>You bring up some valid points and all discussions on the matter are welcome.

didn't sound very welcoming before...

>tbh, I?m perfectly happy if they have a million people buy houses. That means a lot of dollars going into the game, a >lot of dedicated players, and doesn?t cost me anything.

good for you

>I don?t even know what the rent would have been or if it goes to a player controlled castle lord or is just a money >sink.

no-one does, but that's not the point. even if rent was just 1 copper coin (where $1 = 100 copper) per month doesn't matter - it's what was said/promised before as opposed to what they now say.

>This is only the start of the outrage people will show for little things. It is the one burden of kickstarters in the self >entitlement many seem to get.

maybe outrage to begin with, but if it continues, then comes disillusion, and possibly finally requests for refunds.

>If they never said any of the items were exclusive during the kickstarter then there really is not issue.

obviously

>@Hew: I had the same impression after reading that paragraph, that rent free part will be available only to >kickstarter backers. Now I?m not even sure if the amount of the house tier pledges will be limited or not.

it seemed pretty clear cut to me

>@Gunga: While I want this project to succeed, I also want crowdfunding system to be successful, and honestly if I >had to choose, I?m more concerned about the latter than the former. As I have said in another thread extending >kickstarter tier pledged indefinitely jeopardizes the kickstarter funding system. If I knew that pledges would be >available way past the end of the campaign I would just wait as long as possible to make sure the game is not a >flop. If at least half people decided to do the same the game would barely make the initial goal.

+1

>I?m sure even if the campaign failed they had enough funds to continue development, but since they decided to >use kickstarter they should play fairly and not ruin the system for those who don?t have spare millions in their >pockets.

another +1

>If they cannot, they will complain loudly wanting to know why the devs allowed so many deeds to be purchased (I >saw this time and time again in UO). This can have an adverse impact on the game?s reputation.

yep

>Some may think this is an unjustified sense of entitlement. With fair warning of the limitations, it probably is, but >human nature being what it is, I am certain that it is in the games best interest, to not sell too many more houses, >than there are plots to place them??.

why is it always seen as a bad thing when people complain when they don't get what they were promised?
why is any entitlement seen as being unjustified? who determines whether something is justified or not?

>So to all the readers of this post ? as the ever famous Emily Litella would say: ?Never Mind!?

yeah, and the opposite saying would be "Move Along! Nothing To See Here!", and "It's all for the common/social good".

/rant

 

@D : All this over the Deutsche Dogge house pet?

 

On one hand, with KS benefits at the Knight level I don't want to see what I paid for diluted too much or see the "reward" from our risk as early "investors" be less useful. On the other hand, we need to make sure we get the continued investment, *and* I also don't want to create an "us versus them" environment which leads to resentment between those who are strongly invested in the KS program and those who are not. I don't think that serves either group well in the longer term.

 

yes, heaven forbid people standup for what they think is right.

 

Wow, the QQ is astounding. This chat need's dev intervention, STAT.

Again, you guys got what you paid for, don't be dirty that perhaps they have extended a yet unconfirmed courtesy of rent free housing to other players. It is petty and really displays the immaturity of this community. You should all be ashamed. I am ashamed for you.

*gets the clean diapers ready*
So, who's first???

 

I blame Insane...

 

German Dogge. I am personally from german and have to admit, that i don't really like the german dogge. So i personally woudn't want such a dog.
A german sheperd would be more my thing.

Ok, i am not a kickstarter backer, i personally baked on paypal. Ok, i did it for the end of the first pledger period. Uh, well i think i haven't to write it. Actually we are still in the last hours of the early pledger period.

This thing remembers me to the lifetime insurance for the time and yes, i doubt, people would pledge the amount, if they woudn't get the rent on lifetime. I am still not by the citizen tier, but think it would be possible, that i am there until the end of the grace period, because i am in it.

For the not so graceful people (ok, bad linguistic joke), there wouldn't be the same land plots. The early and grace birds would most likely get a waterfront village, the peoples who join after it, will get most likely a waterless plot, because the whole water stuff is not in the new 550 tier. SO it hink that the new tiers wouldn't possible get a free waterfront plot.

 

I'm pretty disappointed about this, too.

 

As Hew said in the beginning it depends on the interpretation of this paragraph on the KS home page:

"Once a house is purchased, players will need to pay regular taxes on it of course. But as a special thank you to select Kickstarter supporters, all housing obtained by making a Kickstarter pledge of Citizen, Lord, Baron, Duke or Lord of the Manor will be tax free for life!"

A) This certainly makes it sound that being tax free is a "special thank you" to KICKSTARTER supporters.

B) However, logically it does not exclude offering it to post-KS supporters.

C) Yet I think any reasonable person reading the paragraph would have thought A was true.

Before we talk about whether it is good to lure more people with tax-free housing post-KS, the fundamental question remains as to whether there was a false or misleading promise made. If they had intended B, there would have been a much better and clearer way to phrase the paragraph. Thus, at the very least there is a definite problem of making an ambiguous statement which was very important for people choosing what level they supported the KS.

I support the project 100% and am not trying to cast blame. Who cares how it happened or who started the confusion? The point of clearing this up is that there could be some confusion and bad feelings going forward, which never help a development effort. Nor does it help just overlooking it, that can create outright hostility. It is a PR issue.

Portalarium please respond!

 

I personally did not think that was the case, since throughout the KS campaign they said they would pick and choose features of what to keep and what to get rid of, along with a higher price for those that come later. My main concern is them keeping housing limited number for pre-buys so that others can also acquire a house though hard work in game.

They don't affect the properties I may want since early backers get to choose first, and why be mad over something so simple, be happy that they want to help support the game as well, many just probably found out about SOTA after the KS campaign.

 

@SS - I don't think anyone is mad - at least not from what I've seen in this thread, and I agree that I don't care if they offer tax-free post-KS. But that's not the point. If you can consider that there are separate issues to address here, go back to the first and most important issue. Even if people seem ok with post-KS tax-free housing, that at best only ignores the first and most important issue.

A statement was made prominently on the home page for KS supporters to consider their pledge levels. It is at the least very ambiguous. Several of us were actually quite confused by it. Others out there could be as well, and someone could have spent hard-earned money to get into the KS, only to learn that what they wanted could have been paid more comfortably post-KS. It is worth having someone explain. Sweeping things under the carpet is never a good business practice, especially when people are volunteering to give money. There is no one looking for blame, or a particular answer here, just a clarification or explanation that will put to rest why this thread was started in the first place.

Here's an example:
"We at Portalarium realize that our statement about tax-free housing on the home page could have led people to believe that this would only be available to KS supporters. It was our intent to offer this post-KS as well, so that we could continue to offer a substantial incentive to raise more money to make the best game possible. We feel that the perks we offer to our KS supporters are still significant enough to express our great appreciation for your early support and contributions. If anyone made donations under faulty assumptions, we are happy to discuss it - please contact us at ..."

I bet they would get 0 contact regarding this, and I wouldn't make it a prominent issue, maybe just posted in this thread.

Transparency - acknowledging donor concerns - response - these are important. I've worked in different levels of fundraising and little issue like this can become big if they're not nipped.

This is my suggestion. If no one gets it, well I will still be a 100% supporter.

 

@Vyrinor - There is something to be said about transparency, and you are probably right that there would be less people "disappointed" if they were open about their plan; however, obviously I think most of this was up in the air until the end.

I think if the new post-KS tiers included a house deed but it was only rent-free for say Episode 1 that it would still be a good incentive for new backers without making KS backers feel a little less special.

That said I think its too late to make any changes. Since the new tiers are already available it would not be fair to lower their benefit now, but having this communicated early to KS backers would have definitely caused the news to have less of a blow. I have done quite a few KS and definitely those that communicate frequently with Backers have the least amount of backlash.

 

1. Rent free housing is still only available to people who pledge early in the game's development, and the price of these tiers is going up. Those who pledged during the KS are getting a discount.

2. Increasing the development budget for the game with more pledges only creates a better game for all of us.

3. Reading the tiers on the KS page, I don't say any claim that those rewards would never be available for anyone else. Portalarium wasn't dishonest, nor did they fail at transparency. You made false assumptions.

Honestly, the complaints in this thread read like sour grapes. People are complaining that they want their reward to be unique, and they don't want anyone else to be able to have the same type of reward. So long as everyone is paying for their reward, what honestly is the problem?

 

@enderandrew - It human nature to want special treatment, and in KS usually rewards are restricted to the KS campaign. Its fairly new (within the last year) that KS campaign continue funding after the KS ends. During these fund raising events there is a push to get the number as high as possible, so I think there it is natural for people to have "sour grapes" if they thought they were getting something special for helping to move the needle during the time-limited event.

I agree with you on several points. The new tiers are more expensive, but I don't think getting a $50 dollar discount on the Citizen tier really feels all that special: especially since I went over $500 already to boost the number and get better housing placements, and - as such - I am not getting that much a discount in the long run. That was a decision I made during the KS independent of my tier level, but if I knew how the post-KS tiers would be structured it would have affected that choice.

Yes, increasing the budget is a good thing for all of us, and I don't think anyone argues that point. The concern is over investments made over an assumption, and - even if that assumption is incorrect - that leads to some disappointment. Portalarium has consistently asked for our feedback, and this thread qualifies. I don't think anyone is hating or screaming, but just speaking their minds. Not all people will have the same opinions on all topics. One man's sour grapes is another man vendetta, but I have seen anything in this thread that is harmful or non-productive.

As I said before, it won't change anything since the tiers are already live and no one wants to have 3 sets of tier groups (KS, post-KS, post-KS Complaints). However, venting can heal the soul.

 

Well the kickstarter homes are better especially if you get waterfront property. I can see this from both sides of the coin. It did kind of appear to me that Kickstarters were the only ones getting rent free housing, but how do you get people to donate so much for a non-rentfree house? Some still would but it's a good incentive.

At least kickstarters get first placement! I hope.

 

They could just use completely separate system for titles and housing for post-kickstarter backers. For example instead of village - city houses, just make it gypsy camp tent of various levels? Or even better reduce number of tiers and have only one tent-tier?

While houses provide mainly crafting / trade benefit the their owners tents could provide different type of benefit, for example instead of rent-free merchant have a basic rent free resource gatherer?

This way kickstarter people will not be slighted at all - they are they only ones with rent-free village - city houses, and post-kickstarter people have something of comparable value, if implemented right.

 

@enderandrew: I think people are missing the point of this thread when they think there are "sour grapes" or people or mad or feel slighted. The title of this thread says it all... it's not about KS pledgers trying to hold on to being "special" (although that's the wording used on the homepage, a "special thank you to our KS pledgers") - it's that there was the possibility for confusion with the wording used on the KS home page.

This thread is NOT about lobbying for a change in what is being offered to KS or post-KS pledgers.

All that needs to be done is for someone to acknowledge the original confusion. This makes the problem go away. I've seen too many times how when you don't respond right away to confusion it blows up or comes out sideways. Small things become big. Wording and promises are usually only binding when you stick to them through lack of communication so hard that people hang you with them. 99% of the time if you acknowledge confusion it blows over and people are incredibly reasonable. I want this game to succeed!

Can you imagine what will happen if this is done with someone's beloved and promised gameplay feature?

 

So i've read all the replies, i understand peoples thoughts and fears, but like Sir Mishri said, its not going to take anything away from us. From what i got out of the description of the new teirs anyone citizen or higher, will get a STANDARD house for that level, rent free, whereas the KS pledgers will have a UNIQUIE house as well as water front property if they choose, among SEVERAL more perks.

At this point however, pledges still need to come in and we all know it will probably a slow trickle now, the main increase will be KS pledgers still upgrading to next levels and such. For new people, if they spend $500, i don't think rent free for them is a big deal. They won't have the same house as us nor have the crafting stations and other things. Plus they ARE paying more for the teirs than us KS peeps.

All in all, this isn't a game breaker, we still get our bonus, don't dwell on this too much, its a moot point in the longevity of this project. Let everyone have a little bit of fun and play on!