SoTA, UO & The Missing Core Element: "Risk"

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Espada, May 22, 2013.

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  1. G Din

    G Din Avatar

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    @Sir Mishri : Poor suggestion....try again...

    Give me something new.

    Found this on a site:

    Death means nothing in shooters either (other than perhaps very little downtime) yet noone wants to die either.

    So the tension is not about loss of items, exp or debuffs? it?s about pride. The best death penalty would be to hurt people?s pride. Let others know how good, or bad, you are. If you?re good, and people can somehow see that, then you?re rewarded for not dying (and killing a lot). If you?re on the other hand die a lot ? and others can see it ? then in most cases your pride is hurt (unless you find pride in having the worst death statistic >< )

    I know you can't really compare shooters and MMO, but I do believe that a dent in your pride stings like a ***** far more than any other death penalty. Especially on those who are competitive by nature (either pvp or pve players).

    All the others are just unnecessary inconveniences that makes gameplay feel more like work.

    Any thoughts?
     
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  2. PrimeRib

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    It's not about death. If you can come back to life, you're not really dying. It's about defeat.

    In PvP if the defender is defeated, then we have a new king of the hill. If the offensive player (or team) is defeated, they should have some lock out from trying again.

    For PvE, it depends what you're doing. It is appropriate to stack a debuff on someone who already cannot complete the task?

    Neverwinter has an interesting concept in that it lets you choose. When you die you get a debuff. You can ignore the debuff and try again right away. You can use a consumable to remove the debuff but this is a money sink. Or you can just stand around for 5 minutes and take the time sink.
     
  3. Umbrae

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    @Gunga Din - I understand what you are saying. For me Dark Souls did not feel like a time sink. Sure there was some grinding involve, and I won't argue removing that from any game, but in most cases the punishment was being set back. Since all monsters respawn on death, the real goal was getting back your dropped loot. So you just continued forward, and if you got to your stuff you basically hit the jackpot because you got the back your loot and whatever gained from fighting your way back. By risk vs reward I really meant that you became careful of where you trended because taking on something before you were ready would set you back. Otherwise, you would the set back was just the game of getting back to your death spot.

    Pride for me is not a motivator. I don't play competitive, so death would be meaningless to me if it just boiled down to a notch on a counter. I like death to be something which people avoid rather than climbing over their own pile of bodies to reach their goal. Since in a game time is the most valuable thing people have, its common for that to be the main deterrent or penalty. However I would love to hear more ideas that add meaning to death without penalties or time sinks.

    Of course, this thread is really more focused on Risk rather than just death avoidance. Death is just one of many risks that can exist in game.
     
  4. Mishri

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    That is also why I stopped playing shooters. I spent the most time playing Counter Strike: Source... The penalties were you would have to wait for a few minutes unable to play and you lost your equipment and had to save up to buy good stuff. (Some server did all sorts of things, like instant spawn, full money, weapon grabs) I didn't care for those.. once in awhile I'd do a gungame map (as you get kills you get a better gun, die and you either go back to the start or back a few) it had instant spawn but a penalty to die.
     
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  5. Umbrae

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    Although it probably not work in the single player, I always like the idea of dead is dead. If you died you must be resurrected by a healer or have your body dragged to someone who can. Otherwise, you are a ghost or in the realm of the dead or whatever. The problem is adding something interesting to do while you wait. Doubt this will necessarily work for SOTA, but in NWN (guess I should say Bioware NWN since the new one is out) this lead to epic corpse runs. Only boring for the dead guy.

    I also never like death debuffs. It just puts you out of the game until it wears off. Horizons had debuffs one that stacked and lasted 8 hours. It just meant you died enough until you had to log off til it dissipated.

    But as I said death is only one kind of risk. What about sicknesses and injuries? Think things like going to long without resting, not eating well, walking unprotected in the rain should lead to sickness or debuffs? How about fights leading to broken limbs and movement or attack penalties?

    There have been threads about these things, but they can all add risk to the game as well.
     
  6. Espada

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    @Gunga Din: I understand your point as a way to punish/reward when engaged in pvp activities. However, the suggestion you offer doesn?t connect with the risk element I meant to harness in this thread. Look at Zook's post, match your suggestion and you will find that they don't cross link well. Zook wouldn?t be on the edge of his seat trying to get away from a dangerous situation because of a ?statistic? that says "Hey, you got ganked 1 time". However, Zook may carry a special pair of gloves that dropped for him in a dungeon and he didn?t port out because he felt that he could just walk home (or is missing his reagents! ? Damn! Come on Zook!). Zook starts walking through the forest and now he finds himself in a rough situation where he is being followed by a Pker(with no intentions of becoming friends), he is running for his life and knowing full well that if he is killed those gloves are gone (as well as his equipment, which is lesser quality and he doesn't really care because it is easily replaceable.... but man.. those gloves! He knows he must survive!). He is 100% accountable for his actions of not porting out when he could (or for not having enough material to do it ? oops!) but he is experiencing an intense situation that makes him truly acknowledge the value of the item that he has because there is potential "risk" for it to be lost and it is a bloody good item. That emotion or feeling can?t be match with a statistical spreadsheet.

    If the system you suggest as a "penalty" system, and remember, this thread is not about penalty (a branch of risk), it's about "risk" (let?s focus on the multiple aspects of risk), Zook would likely give a damn if he is killed or not and his experience is nothing like the one described above. I am not trying to shut down your idea, I think it is a decent one, but as you mentioned, FPS and RPGS/MMOs don?t really pair well. As an example, which is a bit off, look at EA Games (primarily a sport gaming company), and how well Ultima did when it tried to adapt to a model that was ?proven? to work for the ?sport gaming? industry. Nevertheless, the results didn?t quite went well because the genres didn?t really match and their formulas were off.. I am sure Richard can tell you all about that (I just know bits and pieces). However (going back to the main point) your suggestion doesn't convert well because you are addressing the issue of punishment instead of the issue of risk. This thread is about risk, that component that provides meaning to a situation you may find yourself into while on an adventure, which can provide substance and more in-depth significance to the whole experience..

    And risk can be approached from many points of views and perspectives.

    Talking about combat, one of the features I loved about UO was the fact that one had no idea what "level" the avatar one was fighting against was (well, there were ways to see *skill levels* such as titles, etc.. however, it wasn?t as obvious as say:?Hey, I want to jump that avatar! Oh Cr*p! He is lvl 60! And I am just 20! Not a chance!?) That was something priceless because the avatar that you were engaging could be 6-7x GM or 0-2 x GM and you had absolutely NO IDEA (partially). The dyanimic this "risk" element introduced there is of significance. That could be considered ?risk? for a PKer.. Jumping someone who might be mightier than one is, yet, not knowing for sure if this one truly is mightier. The unknown or the unexpected, which lurks within the shadows of one's thoughts, can provide immense gratification/enjoyment for what one?s actions are about to unveil. Again, it belongs to the realm of human interaction and can?t be replaced.

    Regarding your question for suggestions, besides my experiences in UO, which are the core of the risk value I am expressing in this thread, I am not quite sure. I will have to get back to you on that one.

    PS: I wonder if I am communicating my thoughts on this thread the way I really mean them.
     
  7. G Din

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    I just think your all afraid to be branded with a Scarlett Letter after I'll kill you.

    Would be great if you opened Umbrae's paper doll and it shows a list of the last 10 things he died from (1. Gunga din in pvp 2. Rat in sewer etc lol).

    or a marker indicating the amount of deaths that day.

    What if I died 300 times that day , lost some loot etc. It may be a personal loss, but if you want something more penalizing, let others have a way of knowing how poor a player u are.

    Risk of losing my pride. That is the worst of all. Losing loot, time or xp, I can hide those. Don't bother me one bit. Make it more visible, now we are talking.

    I play a shooter every night. I absolutely hate seeing my K:D ration less that 1:1, its embarrassing. When I'm fighting someone 1 v 1, I'm not worried about loot or xp, its the fact he beat me. Plus at the end of the map, everyone is gonna see how poorly I played.

    Talking about just "RISK" , I don't really think anything described on these forums would make my palms sweat. Are you looking for fear ? I don't know how your gonna portray that well.

    Your all looking at it wrong in my opinion.
     
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  8. G Din

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    @Umbrae :

    "Pride for me is not a motivator. I don?t play competitive, so death would be meaningless to me if it just boiled down to a notch on a counter. I like death to be something which people avoid rather than climbing over their own pile of bodies to reach their goal. Since in a game time is the most valuable thing people have, its common for that to be the main deterrent or penalty."

    Why play at all then? You have no pride in your character? Game time is the most valuable thing. Your right, and every stupid MMO uses it as their method of penalizing a player. Why don't we come up with something new? Its so boring....

    Give me something better to portray "RISK"? How about if my mouse shocked me when I died? That would suck lol.

    Punishment is Risk. What is the risk in robbing a bank? Getting sent to jail as a punishment, is it not? They go hand in hand.
     
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  9. PrimeRib

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    @Grimric
    You keep saying "risk". Risk is a <i>rational</i> choice based on probabilities of outcomes. This is not the same as an </i>emotional</i> response to fear, uncertainty and doubt. No one seeks out risk. They might tolerate more risk (because over time higher risk leads to higher expected rewards and they have time). Or they might seek thrill, as in the release of the negative emotions.
     
  10. ChosenPredator

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    It's probably one of the reason I don't post as much anymore I have the personal opinion that this game will be severely safe, the risk I enjoyed in ultima online was a one time thing it was also connected to one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had which don't connect with any other game that may have taken this dive.

    I have always been in the group that allows the players to form groups and dynamically change the world themselves, if someone is murdering someone eventually one of these amazing posters on this forum will likely handle that character and put a watch on them for life...it's how it should be - have faith in people to protect others..but yeah anyways I'll still play this game but I just know there will be zero risk.

    It's strange though because people are always thirsting for punishment...prime example Dark Souls.
     
  11. Umbrae

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    @Gunga Din - Call me crazy but I can have fun doing things without worrying whether someone is better than me. In an RPG I have fun from experiences, and even death and failures can be epically satisfying.

    Role-playing games are for Role Playing. I leave competition to sports and first person shooters.
     
  12. G Din

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    @Umbrae : Point taken. I'm just trying to come up with different ideas.
     
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  13. king

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    Take me back to the days when there was no Trammel just for a week. Sad to say people would rather play an online game to kill monsters with their friends rather than hunt other humans. However, whats the point of playing an online game without that "risk" factor? Is that not why single player or co op exists? Its a shame how a game made so long ago (UO) has taught me many things that games today or as I call them clones, lack. Skill matters, not gear grind or chinese farmers. And finally because I wont bore all of you fine citizens, whats the fun in gaming when you cant lose everything you worked for. Lets be honest WOW has ruined mmos(and lots of other things). Just sad to see people have that wow mentality that's all.
     
  14. PrimeRib

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    @king
    Not sure why you think WoW ruined MMOs. Unlike UO, WoW was actually designed as a PvP game. From the start it had two factions who were sworn enemies, rewarded for killing eachother on sight.

    The fact is, it was players who complained and pushed much of the PvP out of UO. And it was players who changed the focus of WoW from a PvP game to a PvE game.

    Companies just react to what the market and players want.
     
  15. Rasmenar

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    Simple as this: For the game to be worth playing, risk has to equal reward. If players feel that there are no substantial penalties to being a PK, they will engage in this activity due to the high chance of reward (The items other players drop). On the other side of the coin, if there's no increased reward for being forced into PVP activity, players will not feel like it's worth it and they will not expose themselves to the risk.

    The easiest and most simple solution is to not force PVP onto people who don't want it. That way, the players who want to engage in PVP activity are up against other players interested in the same activity, instead of providing a handy flock for the wolves to feed on without discretion. Those who argue otherwise are generally the people who are looking for easy kills against victims who want no part of it.
     
  16. jondavis

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    I'd fear losing my new suit of armor more then I would any kill ratio.
    LOL, in UO if they counted that it would look real bad for me.
    But I wasn't playing to impress anyone.
    That game just brought out so many emotions.
    I think it was the game got everyone so involved in dealing with other players.
    So yea there were good times and there were bad.
    But one thing is for sure, it did not get boring.
     
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