Why full loot? -- (Dev) Replied

@UA, Abydos:

Since I was unsuccessfully trying to find commercially successful full-loot implementations in MMOs (and mind you, even UO backpedalled hard with Trammel and blessed items), and since you seem to be attracted more to that type of game, maybe you could give me some MMO names where full loot worked out? I mean, there have to be some, right?

 

Keep in mind that what I mentioned about trying to look poor was actually an example of a darn good game mechanic considering humility is the all encompassing Virtue. Richard knows his stuff.

 

So, what about the idea of just the items in your back pack being lootable?

 

Full loot brings far more passion into the game.

I look back at UO, the days when there was no insurance and full loot was available.

In the early days when I just started I think I used to rage more because I died to spawn (lag effect) than I did if I died to another player.

When I died to another player, I lost items and had to buy new kit. This acted like a catalyst to drive me to train the character better and team up with other people in game so it was safer to travel and do things. People seem to forget that there were anti-pvp groups who used to go around hunting pks.

The key was to never carry anything more than you were prepared to lose. A few potions, reagents, gm made items........nothing was too expensive, if they were lost it didn't really matter, it kept the crafters in business.

 

I want a playerdriven game world with easily replacable playercreated gears. That remove the need for the ubersword of dragon killing that instakill in 1 hit. Playercreated weapon and armor would also promote playerskills, i dislike loosing in PvP cause i havent found that overpowered sword.
This will also boost the need for crafters in the game. So yes to full loot.

This is a nice little article i think all should read -

http://blog.gamerdna.com/2007/03/27/the-dynamic-world-mmorpg-20/

I quote - "Past RPG Developers have often used items of great power as the main drive or attraction within their games. The removal of items as a major force in these games might draw more people to a fully dynamic world that contains an open PvP environment. "Loot" needs to be a powerful and important factor in games like World of Warcraft because it is so valuable that players will strive for long periods of time to attain it, constantly developing their avatars and keeping them interested in the game?s content?but in a player-driven dynamic world, the emphasis shifts to the evolution of the drama around the characters and organizations within the game?s story. In such a game, there is no longer need for loot of incredible value. One approach is to implement a "full-loot system". A full loot system is something rather contrary to most games on the market today. While many players would be repulsed by the sheer thought, such a system could take the focus off of the constant struggle for new items and place it on more immersive environmental and player content. In a world of governments, kingdoms, militaries, alliances, betrayals, stealth, and intrigue there is no necessity in powerful items that drastically alter the course of conflict. Many players after having experienced MMORPGs are looking to developers to usher in this new kind of content and depart from the traditional item or experience "grind" that is so common in today?s games." - end quote

 

I remember in pnp D&D rubbing my hands together greedily "muahhhhaha" over a +1 sword.

It doesn't get any better than that I hope.

 

@Calem:

Certainly, it's called Ultima Online. It worked, that is indisputable. The developers expected around 10,000 subscribers and within the first month the game was released they had over 5x that amount. If that isn't success, then please let me know what is.

@Ara:

Absolutely, crafting in games like WoW was basically useless. You needed to go on raids to high level dungeons to get the really good gear. This diminished the value crafters offered to society.

 

@acrylic did you think one of the other players in your game would kill you and take all your good things, like your +1 sword?

 

@Rune:

No, I would much rather keep it forever and never have to worry about actually taking care of it because I will never lose it anyway. It's the same reason I walk through the ghetto at night with $1,000 in my pocket. Pssh, I'm not going to lose it. Right?

 

@ultima Aficionado Sure...if I don't take care of it, it degrades and possibly breaks. I'm not talking about real life I'm talking about a game...because if we were talking about real life we would be talking about jail, and possibly executions for player actions.

Frodo didn't leave his sword in a bank as he went to modor.

 

@Rune:

Yeah, which is why there should be consequences when you enter town. For example, the guards kill you if you are a murderer on sight.

 

I just wait to die to finally be looted. Ahhhhh what a feeling

 

@rune_74

Not in pnp D&D, no. But we didn't have crafting either.

If everyone has the best sword and it can't be looted then why damage it and cause it to degrade? That takes incentive out of PvP knowing that nothing will be gained.

It's damaging equipment with no chance to off balance the cost. Unless we do like you say and allow some things to be looted. I prefer losing it all and then buying new gear or winning it all then save, sell, or salvage it.

 

I think SotA is an interesting undertaking. Because SotA does not rely on monthly subscription based income they do not need to chase after the big fish in the MMO arena. As a result there is no need for them to try to cast the widest net or cater to the lowest denominator of player.

If Poratalrium produces a quality single player game in line with Ultimas IV-VII than I am positive that the game will be both a critical and financial success. The inclusion of online play will attract even more players but in and of itself it does not need to be wildly successful for SotA to succeed. Maybe full-loot PvP will scare some people away from playing online but I think it is a small price to pay if RG is serious about making a true successor to his earlier works.

 

I haven't played UO, although I did play through Ultima III-V and a few MMO's, so forgive me in advance if I'm just not getting it =)

If in a world where user crafting will be a key component, is pvp looting those crafted items that people are making really rewarding? If you already have a crafted +1 Broad Sword and you just looted the other person's +1 Broad Sword, is that truly rewarding? Or on the flip side, as I've read in another forum thread, if I have crafted up 5 +1 Broad Swords so that when I lose one, I have a full locker dedicated to them, is that really a consequence?

I can see a consequence for losing in pvp as either loss of certain items or having to pay a "death tax" as a disincentive to taking pvp lightly, but for a reward, instead of taking the same things I already have or could get at a vendor, I would like to see trophies of some sort. Perhaps a portion of cloth, the person's user or guild standard, etc that I could display as trophies in my house.

As another idea, I could imagine having unique type items that when worn in the world automatically make you susceptible to pvp and those unique items would be fully lootable. Supply and demand would take over as those items become hotly contested between players and/or guilds.

Just some thoughts from an "outsider" regarding pvp. I'm looking forward to what they create as long as the pvp doesn't degrade into griefing. Pvp with looting that has a purpose would be much more rewarding than spawn camping to melt things into ingots.

 

Full loot is a must in my humble opinion.

First it is truest incentive not to die. The only thing worse than full loot is disappearing loot like Demon Souls and don't try to say gold insurance provides the same incentives. Granted an insurance system that gets exponentially more expensive is a deterrent but its not the same as full loot. What people sometimes forget about full loot is that when you die on the battle field your friends can also 'save' or reuse your stuff. There is nothing like being in an epic battle, running out of pearl (can't fireball, energy bolt or recall) and finding a bag full of reagents. Big rush of adrenaline.

Second, as stated by @UltimaAficionado, it is a type of gambling and adds to the addictive value of the game. If you played UO enough you grew to knew who carried around bare minimal gear and would actively avoid getting into fights with these people, because there were 'better sheep to shear.'

Third, there is a learning element when you get to look through someone's corpse and see how they arrange their items. Additionally you can finally figure out what the heck kind of armor he was wearing underneath that robe that was absorbing all those hits.

I would hope these three reasons are more than enough to sway all of you (I haven't seen anyone change their mind on these boards in weeks) and the development team to have the majority of the game full loot. Maybe in tournaments or other 'sanctioned' type events they implement no loot so people bring out their best gear but the majority of the game if you die your items are up for grabs. Then implement money insurance for instanced dungeons and people playing solo/friendlies only.

 

@Groo - I want those broadswords to smelt and make new ones.

To continue from above, I'd also like to agree with everyone who points out that these games that focus on newer items leaves the crafting community behind. The focus of PvE should yield crafting resources that are used to augment gear when it's crafted. This allows for later releases to introduce new monsters -> new resources -> new weapons without throwing the crafters out of the loop. Additionally a majority of these resources should not be obtainable from the result of smelting which puts a nice sink into the world. If a broadsword that I just looted is augmented with some semi-decent stuff but that doesn't fit my characters play style I'm going to smelt it all instead of trying to sell it.

 

@Groo the Wanderer

I think it is more a matter of immersion. If a bunch of bandits waylay a traveler and kill them they should be able to loot that person. Not all the the gear is useful, but some may fetch a few coins in town. The rest might be useless and the bandits can choose to take it or leave it as they see fit.

From the point of view of the traveler, they need to weigh the rises of taking the trip versus the potential benefit they may receive for doing so. If raids are particularly bad on a stretch of road merchants may consider hiring protection for the trip or contributing to a reward that attracts bounty hunters and hero types to the area.

Full loot in and of itself is not the important part here, what is important is the emergent behavior that develops as a result.

 

People keep mentioning realism as one of the reasons for full loot, but I don't really believe that. Because if we were to apply realism a lot of the other problems would be solved with people Pking for instance, Jail time and death would follow those actions, but no one wants that because really that isn't fun.

I still think having whatever extra's people carry in their bags should be fine, but lets not generate a system that makes people not wear their good stuff ever unless they are in a safe place.

 

What about a dual loot approach? Say a certain bag is set as being safe, but a extra bag for short-term which would be lootable... Like a over-flow or something which would be lootable??