Is levelling anti-immersive?

Discussion in 'Skills and Combat' started by Quenton, Jul 22, 2015.

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  1. Themo Lock

    Themo Lock Avatar

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    ^ What Logain said. Also the thread is addressing immersion and the main issue that has been brought up about use based gains is that you encounter scenes full of people macroing actions like falling off a rock/heal/climb rock/repeat as opposed to having to go out and hunt stuff, which is why the proposed system includes elements of both.
     
  2. Aetrion

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    Leveling in itself is not anti-immersive, what is anti-immersive is level gating.

    There is an important distinction between these two. Leveling is simply the idea that your character gains new abilities in distinct levels of power. It's simply a comprehensible way to mechanically implement a character's increasing abilities. Level gating on the other hand is the practice of locking content behind a level requirement, and that's where immersion is lost. Gating mechanisms in games certainly have their place, if you want players to experience the world in a certain order, to tell a story for example, or to make it easier for them to understand where they are supposed to go. However, if you are looking for the open world experience of a true MMORPG level gating becomes a huge hindrance to you. It stops you from effectively playing with people who are higher level than you, it stops you from going where you want, and it makes you feel like being powerful actually isn't meaningful, because all you've accomplished is open up areas of the game where the monsters are just as powerful.

    Games like WoW are notorious for the way their level structure is a gating mechanism that locks you into very specific content. You can't even hurt a monster that's 10 levels above you, and even if you managed it, the game won't give you the quest to kill that monster, nor would it let you wear the items you would have gotten as a reward. If you have a friend who is level 100 when you just start out you exist in a completely different number space than them. Your damage is measured in double digits, their damage in tens of thousands. In a game like Ultima Online on the other hand it's perfectly possible for the long time veteran to take a new character under their wing. In theory you can walk straight into the hardest dungeon, and do a point of damage or two to the toughest monster in it, or heal one of the veterans, or at least help carry some loot home. Whether or not a progression system breaks immersion depends on whether or not it is used to lock you off from content and other players.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2015
  3. mikeaw1101

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    I think it's pretty much that we just like to argue. :rolleyes:
     
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  4. MalakBrightpalm

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    THIS. This right here. Total agreement. Max Level is an unsupported myth that has grown up purely from the limited imaginations and/or limited tools of prior game makers. There is no such thing. Tell any of the great figures of the real world that they have reached Max Level and can no longer progress, improve, or learn. They will laugh in your face (once you have explained the convoluted meaning of the term). Hell, look at yourselves! Has anyone on this forum reached Max Level in their lives? Are any of us locked and unable to progress or learn???
    All this would achieve would to make us blind to the grind. If you want an option that makes the level indicators go away, I'm all for you having one, but I like to track my progress. More, I'd like that progress to be in a non-level format, with gradual gains and no ceiling.
    I got two problems with what you say here. I think that there is a rabid misunderstanding about the word macro going on in this forum, and it bothers me, I discuss this below. Meanwhile, if you made experience "only quest-driven" I and those like me would quit that day. I LIKE getting progress from doing my own thing, instead of only being rewarded when I play Simon-Says with the NPCs. I LIKE learning from killing monsters, or gathering and crafting, or doing a seven hour dance-off with other PCs on top of a mountain. I want more sources of XP gain, not fewer.
    Actually you are wrong here. This thing you describe is a very specific, very specialized, and highly detectable type of macro. A macro is TECHNICALLY any program that interprets a keystroke to do more than that key was originally intended to do. It adds functions to buttons. Keep in mind that the keys 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. were originally intended to enter single numeric digits into a text field. Binding them to make abilities work in game is ALREADY a macro. Another macro, of higher complexity, occurs when keys are assigned random and or rotating abilities, so that each button press fires off a different skill. Having numlock, or tiddle, or Rmouse4 trigger and stop autorun is a macro. In some games, you can build sequences and decision trees into macros, in some, you can build toggles (so that holding shift and hitting the key does something different than holding cntrl and hitting it, and something different than just hitting it does). Macros are ways for the player to exert control over the UI. That's what macros are. Again:

    Macros are ways for the player to exert control over the UI.

    It is in allowing people to exert TOO MUCH control over the UI that we get problems with macros. So, don't do that. Don't allow macros that trigger other macros, don't allow macros that trigger themselves. Don't allow the player to redesign his UI to have one button that scripts a five minute fight scene. Other games have done it. Will you still have cheaters using third party software to break the rules? Yes, but you will ALWAYS have that. Random deal doesn't restrict them, lack of macros doesn't restrict them, the Terms of Use don't restrict them, they will use third party software to hack the game NO MATTER WHAT. Punish them when they are caught. As was said above, the only true defense is vigilance.

    But that doesn't justify hyper-vigilance.
     
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  5. Logain

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    Reaching a maximum happens on both level progression and skill progression alike, when it's designed to have a cap. Thus that point is mute for the debate at hand. That said, Chris clearly stated that the 'level cap' is a soft one (one that you won't reach regardless on how long you're going to play).

    You are right. I discarded the parts that are irrelevant for the discussion, assuming it would be obvious, given the link I provided and should have made that clear, my bad there.

    No, by that definition any software that takes (keyboard)input would be a macro.

    It is the same theory applied against terrorism (e.g. in air-planes), or against burglary. Stop the high amount of low qualified people with an easy to implement, cost efficient solution. No body scanner or lock is going to prevent a well educated, determined person from placing a bomb in an air-plane or breaking into a house/car. So, why do we even bother with the body scanner or the lock? Because it reduces the amount of occasions to the number of people who can 'outsmart' the system at a low cost.
    It is by far more trivial to download a free (yet highly unlikely to contain malware) recording software, start it, record, stop and execute than it is to write a bot. Hence the idea is to stop the (considerable) percentage of people that could (and would) set up a macro, but could not write their own bot and do not want to risk their computer security by downloading one.
     
  6. MalakBrightpalm

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    Exactly my point. There are good macros, and bad macros. There are macros that we all use constantly, like ctrl-c ctrl-v, and macros that are only used by more specialized high end system users, like ctrl-alt-f1.
    In the debate about bots and macros, I think it damages the cause and inflates the fears of the under-informed to refer to all abusive programming as "macros" without being more specific.

    I am absolutely in favor of mechanisms to stop burglars and terrorists, as long as they WORK. In the debate here, however, I see the equivalent of people giving the TSA the right to rove out from the airport making random traffic stops within three miles of said airport, or the equivalent of people building totem poles in their front yards made out of deadbolt locks all welded together. The application of security should make sense, and have a logical path between implementation and reduction of security breaches.

    Mechanisms to stop the use of known botting software and botting methods are good. Mechanisms that crash SotA if any other program is detected running concurrently are bad. Saying that macros shouldn't be able to play themselves is good. Saying that there should be no macros in the game at all is bad. I believe that including a macro code system into the game, a WELL THOUGHT OUT system, with appropriate limits, will actually help curtail abusive macroing, because the more complex the interface, the more complex and difficult to build/use/conceal will be the third party software designed to hack it.
     
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  7. Logain

    Logain Avatar

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    I included a link to the Wikipedia entry on the term for that very purpose. Calling EVERY piece of software a macro is somewhat counter-productive. We already have a term for that, software, no need for another. In the ~CONTEXT~ at hand (gaining an unfair advantage through the use of third party software) nobody bothers if you have set up hotkeys, hence the term macro commonly refers to the software used to record and then replay certain input (unconditionally!!!), whereas the term bot refers to software that reacts based on the game. You could simplify this by saying 'Macro->no AI vs Bot->AI'. I'm not going to argue on this further though. I've tried to make my point.
     
  8. Ao Soliwilos

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    In my opinion, the difference between skill gain and character levels is that a character level, being more an abstract concept is not truly a good measure of competency. Skill progression, while also using numbers has a much clearer meaning as to how good you are at different skills. Watching multiple skills grow is for me much more meaningful than seeing a character level increase. With skill progression, you are slowly getting better all the time while using them, which I find more real and more fun.

    Skill progression systems provide more realism, in that you could stop using a certain skill you don't want anymore and naturally let it decline while training something new instead. With a character level based system they usually do this by letting you instantly swap things out for a fee. Not very immersive. It's not very immersive fighting a lot with a mace and then suddenly on level up you decide to master some wizardly magic instead of mace skills either.
     
  9. Otha Livinded

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    As a long time, hard-core player of roles, I have never found character levels, abilities that raise, gaining items that make you more powerful, skills that increase, or new skills that you can acquire to be immersion hurting in any way.

    People seem to think there is some massive difference in these things- and I don't think so. These designs come from the idea that when you create a fantasy character, you need to slowly raise them up in relative power for a number of reasons.

    1. If you are given a character that is super powered to start with, and everyone else is also super-powered, it's a relative thing, and no one, really, is different than anyone else. This is the same if everyone starts weak and stays that way, which, isn't very interesting because you have no reason to quest or try and advance. While sure, there are games where you strictly "live lives" without levels. These tend to be social games, often with currency. In those games currency or knowing people and using your diplomatic skills is what gives you control, power, money. As long as you can advance with some form of "power"- be it skills, cash, or levels- it's really the same motivation to keep on playing. It's all the same thing.

    Whatever "carrot" there is to entice you to gain abilities, skills, levels or stuff that makes you tougher- it really is the same basic mechanic, psychologically. I've dabbled quite a bit in 7 Days to Die and DayZ, (the original one), and both of these games really rely on weapons or buildings you make/find to help you surivive and become more empowered.

    It's no different than levels or skills. You strive to become more powerful over time- it requires working at it. Guns, the ability to shoot them accurately, and safehouses are what you look forward to, the same as leveling does.

    2. Leveling impacts positively on immersion. "Immersion" is your belief in the world and character. The existence of any sort of leveling- be it skills, items or whatever- tends to make you want to understand your character's strengths and weaknesses in order to improve the character.

    This in turn leads you to love your character as he or she gets "stronger". You become "in tune" with your character, and any sort of advancement can help the immersion within the world. Leveling helps keep you coming back.

    3. Immersion is done by the player. The game's systems should always strive to get out of the way of the player's ability to get lost in the world. When a game system like combat becomes obtrusive and draws you out of the game world- it is a weak system in an RPG.

    This is why modern game designers strive hard to keep the UI invisible as possible. It's always better in an online RPG to feel like you are actually doing what the character is supposed to be doing- fighting with a sword and shield, driving a spaceship or car, shooting a gun. The more abstracted away from what is going on in the game the system gets, the more it pulls you away from being immersed.

    So, while there is nothing at all wrong with skills and leveling- because you attend to them when you choose to pause and leave your character outside of combat and chatting as your character in game- it's a horrible mistake for a game design to pull you out of the combat with the dragon to use an abstracted toolbar during what ought to be the most exciting part of the game world itself. (Which is the big problem with Shroud's deck system.)

    4. Levels, skill systems, and items give you a sense of pride and accomplishment with your character. This adds to the immersion of a game, rather than diminishing it. You can actually feel like you have worked hard to understand your character, made him or her actually tough, and you get so that you have a feeling of getting to do things in the fantasy world that you would fear to do, or couldn't manage to do in real life.

    So, in my opinion, leveling, skills, and all that, are good things which add to the immersion in an RPG.
     
  10. Damian Killingsworth

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    the whole point of the system being developed in SotA is that you will never max out. I like that goal.
     
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  11. mikeaw1101

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    Meh. In a video game you will have to max out eventually, either that or the developers would have to put out new "level based" content forever... Otherwise the gameplay side (not including roleplay and PvP) would get boring?
     
  12. Ao Soliwilos

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    If that can be achieved I may not mind character levels being present. I also like the idea that new player characters should be able to play with more experienced player characters, enjoying the same content, at least to some extent.
     
  13. MalakBrightpalm

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    A nice thought, except that this is all misinformation and mistaken thinking, exactly what I'm arguing against.
    "Software" does not refer to small bits of control interface that a player uses to customize a UI. Software is all programming, so now you've taken what was a general term for ALL PROGRAMMING and tried to use it as the general term for ALL UI MODS, so that you can free up the appropriate term for all UI mods to be applied mistakenly to ALL HARMFUL HACKS.

    Use the right words, man, I know you can!

    Now, YES, you included the Wiki link, that would partially offset misunderstandings created by your post, but how many people do you think are gonna click that link and read up? And yes it IS your problem. When an advertiser puts a slogan on their package that says the product can cure cancer, and puts a * next to it; when the * by that leads to a web address where the searcher can find a complex article explaining how technically the product is unproven but some evidence suggests a curative relationship; when full understanding of that article leads one to realize that the product is totally unproven and the claim is just advertising; that is called FRAUD, and the company can be sued for it.

    You included a link that partially ('cause this is wikipedia we are talking about, anybody could edit ANYTHING into that page, it's not authoritative) explains what you should have included in the wording of your post. I objected. And I will continue to do so.

    Software is the program. UI is the user interface, the form of which is currently being debated hotly on these forums. Macros are small command sequences of any type and for any purpose used to customize user input to the UI. Legal Macros are included in the game's software by the Devs and allows us to move activation keys around, keybind abilities as we wish, and reach our selection of abilities more conveniently, as the Devs intend. Illegal Macros are UI command sequencers that the Devs have banned or never intended, which are invoked by the use of third party software to do things that give an unfair advantage. Bots are third party software that runs your character for you so you don't even have to play.
     
  14. recon0303

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    Issue most games have with skill point level ups is they allow people to hit the same targets over and over... With out giving away to much since I actually i'm in the industry and designing such a thing. There are ways around that from happening, and even in the same area, or same person.. Alot of level macros use stuff like that.. For example, in WOW, I used to see fishing bots, people would fish in the same spot for days..... Why not make it so after a few mins, the fish are gone?? Mining, some games have them respawn in the same spot, don't let them happen either, have them spawn in another spot, and have it set to different times.. Random ones, yes people can still find ways,but I bet no were near as much, it will become to the point of not worth macroing, also, having programs to pick up some of these 3rd party macro programs as well, some companys do that now... There is alot more, but not going into detail, those ideas are very , very basic ideas of what some of them , really could do as a starting point ..
     
  15. Archangel

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    But adding luck and randomness to that progression would be even more fun.
     
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