Are they still using deck-based combat?

Lots of good thoughts in this thread.

 

Anything that is more "active" consumes more bandwidth for data transfer and data computation.

Once the game is released and your computer is going to be asked to render (and the servers responds to) hundreds of players at once, you'll be thankful that you won't be needing to much reflexes in your input.

You keep mentioning that modern MMOs and shying away from this system and you've yet to give an example of what you mean.

• World of Warcraft? Obviously not.
• GuildWars 1-2? No.
  
• Final Fantasy 14? No.
• Elder Scrolls Online? No.
• Archeage? No.
• Wildstar? No.
• Neverwinter? No.
• Mortal Online? No.
• Camelot Unchained? No.

They all have action/skill bars. So what you're referring to are the games that require you to actively block and swing your sword.

• Elder Scrolls Online.
• Mortal Online.
• Camelot Unchained? Maybe? Info is sparse.

That narrows it down a bit... but the thing is, aside from the ability to block, SotA shares similar combat mechanics as these listed. SotA has a game mode that allows you to freely and actively swing your sword... it's called free attack (or, to be more precise: auto-attack off).

So what's the problem, really?

Is it fine-tuning? Because that normally doesn't happen in pre-alphas.

 

The problem ist that the combat in those games always feels the same. It is as if you play the same game just with different graphics and a different story. It's the same over and over again. Where is the fun in this? In the past it was fun getting to know a totally different combat system. Why should someone want to play SotA if the game mechanics offer nothing new and the game plays like other MMOs? I want to play something new, something different.

Another thing is: With a passive hotbar combat system I suddenly get removed from my hero. I am no longer actively in charge. I am no longer the hero, but instead I suddenly become an invisible commander who just issues orders and watches the "puppet" carry out those orders. After the combat I am suddenly back in control and I am the hero again... This rips me out of the game experience.

 

@Lord_Darkmoon

If you're looking for something radically different, looking at the genre with the most technical limitations probably isn't the way to go.

• RPGs are always visually behind other games because (good RPGs) require a non-static world.
• MMOs will always be limited by the latency between your computer and the server. As opposed to, say, a 14 player FPS (which even THEY suffer latency issues). Data needs to move across the world and the internet is not structured to support this; it's called a web for a reason (there is no direct link).
• MMORPGs... well, you get the idea.

Now, as for the skill/action/hot bar issue, the moment you play an entity (like a vehicle or a character) that allows you to do different abilities from your basic one (basic, as in, swinging your sword) like "fireing missiles", "talk to NPC", "shoot poison arrows", "kick in nads", you need to do 2 things:

1. give the player a list of these abilities.
2. allow the player a way to activate these abilities.

If you're making an RPG, you NEED these two basic things.

The list part is pretty simple. Pressing "v" in SotA pretty gives you a run down of all the things you can do and is a good example of the BARE MINIMUM at what a game designer / programmer can do to create a list.

To activate the abilities, you need either a UI element like a button to press or a keyboard hotkey mapped to each of the abilities on the list. For a game like an RPG, that'd be a lot of buttons and a lot of hotkeys... so to filter that, you limit your buttons to only a select few abilities and map the hotkeys to the 1-9 keys...

You just got yourself a skill/action/hot bar.

• Baldur's Gate
• Neverwinter Nights
• Mass Effect
• Sim City
• Railroad Tycoon
• Diablo
• Command & Conquer
• Fable
• Lemmings
• Dungeon Keeper
• X-Com
• Civilizations
• Hearthstone
• Doom
• Unreal Tournament
• Call of Duty
• Legend of Zelda (it's 2 buttons, but you can map them to any item)
• the list goes on and on.

They all have this.

If you can come up with a better way of achieving that, by all means. I'm sure a good amount of people around the world would care to listen.

It may sound like I'm patronizing you, but I just want to illustrate just how much the action bar you hate so much is, at its core, EVERYWHERE. Getting rid of it means getting rid of that any complexity you might want to achieve in a video game.

 

I totally understand what you mean.
Maybe I am thinking in a wrong direction but I am thinking about Ultima 7. RPGs were in a similar state back, when the game was released. The gamers wanted to have turn-based combat, a UI with as much information as possible, worlds were not really simulated etc.
But Ultima 7 offered something different. It turned away from the traditional system. No UI at all, a simulated world and a real-time combat system. For most Ultima fans Ultima 7 is the best of the single player series and for many RPGs players it is one if the best single player RPGs.
I was hoping for something along those lines for SotA, too. A new and unique game with new systems, taking some risks by offereing new gameplay mechanics.
The same for Ultima Online. If it would have been like Meridian 59 or some MUD, it wouldn't have been so successful. It offered something completely new, something unique. New systems which no other game used back then. It was a risk, RG took it and it payed off. So why are we not open for such risks and new and unique mechanics anymore?

I for one wouldn't need a UI. It worked in Ultima 7 and Ultima 8, so why shouldn't it work now, too. I'd even go so far as saying that I wouldn't need visible skills. We would still get stronger but we would just "feel" it by doing more damage or being able to carry more stuff etc. Something organic and natural. An evolution of the common RPG systems. Still offering the mechanics but in a different, unique way.
I hope you understand what I mean. I think that the whole genre is stagnating, using the same system over and over again. I was hoping that SotA would offer this evolution at least in some ways - even if it would just be a unique take on the UI or a combat system that is new...

 

A new combat system would be great.
For me, a new UI is unnecessary, as Gix pointed out above. I would be more than happy with up to 4 hotbars, including combo's, reactives, interrupts, specials, etc.

Now, speaking only for myself, I find the past and present interface in UO to be extremely limiting, restrictive, and difficult to use. It also simply screams "macro me" which everyone does. And I don't mean just macro'ing to increase skills, I mean the objective term, which is binding one key to multiple actions, because the UI doesn't permit it, but the game expects it. I mean, really, are you going to type "Bank" 200 times a day? No, you're going to bind that to a key, and press that key.

When the UI is cumbersome, people work around it. If a game prohibits that, people don't play it.

But to re-iterate my position on the thread topic: I would much rather see reactive, interesting combat than a random UI. Personally, I believe the path forward for innovation in this area is in combat mechanics, not in a punitive UI.

 

I'm not entirely sure because I didn't play it for too long but didn't Ultima 7 played itself whenever combat happened? Wouldn't that pull you out of your character even MORE so than what we got right now?

I guess it IS different but is it different in a good way? It's an improvement in the way you actually have objects to interact with (which is a first in RPGs, I'd say), but is omitting the UI really the best way to approach it all?

I totally get you as I believe that the entire industry in general is stagnating. A fair amount of developers (including myself) are looking for different ways to improve the RPG genre in their own unique ways. I think the difference is that I don't believe the issue is UI related. I want better combat, but I'm really looking for a more polished experience than a complete overhaul of gaming status quo.

... we've pretty much achieved the simplest thing. Like the wheel. Sure, you can come up with a new way of transporting things (or people) from one place to another, but you won't find a simpler, cheaper (power and cost) and safest way to do it than the wheel. The science we understand doesn't allow for better.

I had a similar conversation with someone asking for a better, radical (different) interface milestone other than touch screens. The reality of it is, you can't be more intuitive than the instinct of wanting to touch something. Touch screens even have the distinct advantage of not being limited by physical space and mechanical malfunctions. The best we can do there is improve on it; making it more precise, smarter, cheaper (power and cost) and faster.

So is this it? Are we at the pinnacle of how far gaming can go? Oh hell no! Technology has advanced to the point where 3D and mind-reading aren't gimmicks anymore... it just needs to be more common for developers to make (better) games for those potentially upcoming platforms.

Game developers are looking for ways to improve on what we have available; which isn't munch. Some of these devs completely miss the point but at least they're trying.

Richard Garriott is bringing the RPGs back to the way the Ultimas were. It's his way of clearing the board and start fresh from there.

 

Not to detract from what you were saying Agra, but UO's UI had a macro function exactly for that reason... it was quick and easy to setup even a multi-text reactive macro that could enhance your gameplay and or roleplay.

I think the issue with WoW getting boring is the bad design and consumption philosophy (make quick expansions for as much people as possible so everyone has the illusion of "advancement") there is nothing wrong with static hotbars and cooldowns UO was basically the same although I prefer it because there was nothing to help you with cooldowns, the difficulty of the UI added realism to the roleplaying.

Yes it was hard to seize that kryss and switch weapons mid-fight, but that made sense cause you were being mauled about. The same "logic" is being used to justify the randomized skills the avarat gets with the deck system but I really think its flawed to apply it to skills.

Don't get me wrong tho I'm sure our avatar can "forget" his heal spell because he's been mauled, feeling dizzy for a moment, but then it should be in relation to the other players action. Adding layers which make this interesting add latency and defeat the whole purpose or making a more sophisticated system... but then again all the latency is caused by improper handling of operation priorities because our dev team still uses a pre-made unity package and haven't programmed the logic like it was done back in the day with UO.

It feels like in the day when you went to a LARP and there was 4 costumes for 10 npcs and you had to make do : use your imagination ... however its more insulting when a professional company like Portalarium does it than when its your cousin who's acting on a limited budget... you wanted to save time by using Unity... now its backlashing...

 

Chris is requesting Combat questions in this thread:
https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/combat-skills-spells-video-chat.38539/

I borrowed some thoughts from this thread to post my questions.

 

I only tried the deck system once. I love it for mages but since reagents are overpriced I am waiting to create a chaos mage.

I use locked decks and have zero problems with focus.

 

The system we have now with locked glyphs and auto-attack goes like this:
1. Click on the enemy.
2. Watch the hero whack away at him (or don't watch him, it doesn't matter anyway)
3. Yawn
4. Move the camera around to admire the landscape a bit
5. Yawn again
6. Click 1,2,3,4,5 occassionally when a skill is ready

 

Warning, terrible joke ahead!
So without locked glyphs, you wouldn't be able to admire the landscape, as your eyes would be glued to the random skill hotbar?
heheh. Sorry, when you pitch 'em slow, I'm gonna swing.

 

Yes
But: Then you would have to pay a little bit more attention as to where the skills pop up. This may be not quite as boring but still nothing I would call a thrilling, exciting combat experience

 

Agreed. At this point, we can't even see "a thrilling, exciting combat experience" we're so far away from that goal, with this state of development.

 

I realize that the twitch players would like something to fit their abilities, but there are those of us who don't have the reflexes or memory to do much more than the present system allows. I personally would not want to see a forced "gesture" system where one drags the mouse this way to do this attack and drag it some other way to do a different attack. I have a hard enough time remembering which key I should press for inventory, much less how to do a special movement (a slight exaggeration, it's 'N' for "nventory", right? LOL).

So if nothing else, an alternate, less twitchy way of doing things would be nice for people like me, even if twitch combat is added for those who can use it.

 

What about free attack? When the mode first came around, I practically only used my glyphs as enhancements and relied primarily on my weapons.

 

Free attack is definitely better but still not that engaging and exciting. The focus still lies on the glyphs too much and people using free attack are at a disadvantage, especially in PvP.

 

That's fine-tuning; especially the part where you say that free attack is at a disadvantage. Whenever or not Portalarium delivers a polished product is a different matter altogether.

 

I'm with @Aetrion on this. If you don't want to have a predictable best rotation, then the better scenario is a combination of decent AI and skills influencing each other. The best possible set of fixed skills is no longer doing you any good if your opponent can take a meaningful action to reduce it's efficiency, hence forcing you to take a tactical dynamic approach where skill, brain and preparation are involved equally.