Magic: Damage, Heal, Utility

Hello!

I wrote a long review of the archery and tamed pet template, however, I messed up in that I posted in the wrong forum, but you can find it here: Ranger (Ranged with Pet) My Experiences

I will talk about a different aspect today and that would be magic.

If you read my archery thread, you'll see that I started out as mage, with a tamed pet to accompany me, because I've played a Tamer for years in UO and loved that kind of game play.
I do like the magic aspect, too, so after trying hard to make it work by switching my magic around for archery skills, I went on with the tamed pets for a while only to give up later in frustration and eventually returned to magery.
You can see all this in the thread I linked above, along with various other things and an interesting discussion with useful replies, if you're into "developing" - and I sure hope some of those who read this are ^^

Now, magic.

The magic trees have certain things in common.
While the basic premise is all right (got a starter skill and an "add element to damage for melee chars with low-tier melee-range spell") and I like the polarity and the idea with innates, there are still things I'd like you to take a good look at - and that's what this thread is about.

The nukes.

• All trees have an "arrow" of some sort, a single target DD spell.
  
• They all have different secondary effects, which is nice, but they're all rather unspectacular, boring "magic arrows".
  
• In UO, I ran around casting Lightning, Flamestrike or Corp Por at things, which was fun, because those were high circle spells and it took high magery to not fizzle them, and then they had OOMPH. Lightning only was a medium-powerful spell, but it felt powerful. A fat lightning strike from the skies hit the target and it lost a good chunk. Kal Vas Flam even had devastating effects.

• None of the arrows in SOTA do that. And even if they did, they'd just feel lame and not powerful at all. The fact that all these single target DD spells have an abysmally low minimum damage leads to strings of virtually no damage, during which the caster is getting destroyed and as a result, these spells feel even weaker than they already are.
  
• The damage range is something that definitely needs a second pass and get rid of those unspectacular arrows.
• Magic arrow was pretty sad in 1997, and now we got similar looking, various colored spells with the same look in 2015.

Some trees have elementals.

• No matter how high you skill them though, they don't do their job very well.
  
• Sure, the nuker type elemental (water, fire) will be able to solo single mobs in Kingsroad, but take them to a tier 2 scene and they're next to useless. They add a tiny bit of DPS until they're under fire and then they're dead.
• The tank type of pet can't tank. It can take a bit more damage, but not that much (tier 2 is still okay, but tier 3 is already bad - and you shouldn't have to rely on heals from another tree to keep them up), but they can't grab even initial "face aggro" from you. They have to beat the mob half dead until they grab the attention.
• Pets also don't scale at all.
• Death pets have the annoying decay mechanic. I couldn't test them very well, because I went into Healing, but the first iteration of the first pet (Skeleton Footman) will probably barely survive a normal skeleton in a tier 1 zone and then fall apart.
• Higher ranks of the pet skills will make them cost less reagents and that's fine, but the pet itself becomes outdated very early and then it doesn't make sense to even call them anymore.
• All the pet support skills also don't seem to work, but I guess those are placeholders right now and will get functional later on (if not, look over them now, because they're bugged and not functional at all).
• Even IF the elementals worked, the focus debuff when you call them is not needed at all, since maintaining the pet (micromanagement and upkeep) force you to have an eye on them or they do unexpected things like running somewhere and pulling more than you can handle, or they just die.
• I know they had a focus drain earlier and the debuff is already a step in the right direction, but please. If you have to keep them (and I see no reason why, pets worked wonderfully in UO and other games without that), reduce that or convert it into something else, like lower cast speed or a small potency debuff for spells (in the range of 5-10%, reducible with skills).

The Buffs

• They're nice, but not that great, because their duration is too short to make them worthwhile, even at max level. Give them all a set duration of reasonable time (20min) and make them gain power with higher level.
  
• It's okay to start them out at a pathetic level, as long as the player can get there and they're useful at max level. Gives them a goal.

Crowd control

• looks all right, but Root is currently a stun. This shouldn't be the case, especially since the duration can be rather long (making this the lifesaver in R24, where the whole concept of magic is borked, weak, costly, boring and unsatisfying), where "pl4t3d3wd" can rock the scenes with a 2hander and 3-4 active skills, even with leaving their brain at the login screen.

Healing

• is another thing that has to be looked at.
  
• The single target heals are okay mechanically and the group heals lack AOE range.
  
• All spells have the same issue the damage spells are already suffering - horrible minimum values.
  
• But even the max values are not great.
  
• Narrow the minimum-maximum gap.
  
• Also, raise the area of effect for the group heals drastically.
  
• Like, right now you can hit other targets only when they're stacked on top of each other.
  
• Place 3 players in a congo line and you hit 2 with a group heal.
  
• This is not group healing or AOE, it's "splash healing" and not fun. But it would be okay if they started out like that and then the AOE grew in size with higher skill level.

Various thoughts about the spell trees and what to do with them to make them fun:

The concept between the heals though is okay, even though I'd like some more spectacular effects - a bit more light flying around, glitter, eye candy. This goes for every spell in the game. Mages are the guy responsible for the light show. In SOTA, they're the dirty peasant that always lacks focus, always runs around with half hitpoints and is getting caught with their pants down every other pull. Their pets are also annoyances and you wish they'd just not cast them at all because they can't kill, they can't tank, but they can pull every patrolling mobs in a huge area. And die in the process.

• What I couldn't really test was Death, due to me going into Life.
• I tried Fire for a bit, then noticed it does no damage (even less than other schools) and abandoned it in favor for Water.
  
• I went Sun, even though Moon looks nice on paper with many interesting spells.
• I went for Earth and not Wind, because Wind had too much "dex-y stuff" for my taste. Put that into Moon or, better yet, into Tactics. I want to use Lightning as a mage, but with so much useless stuff it feels like "half a tree" with utility for a template that's not main caster.
• Earth utility was all right, but right now Earth is the school every melee will run as it does most for melee type characters. Mages can carry more rusty swords though, which is better than nothing, and the root is nice, it will even be great when it's fixed and a real root instead of a stun. The "melee-y" stuff needs to be low-tier while the BOOM needs to be high-tier.

I wrote this above, but I'll go into detail for the utility stuff.
It needs to be below the innates. The low "fists" should do almost no damage, but add the secondary effects, so they become attractive for fighter types. This way, all fighter players will have access to some basic and interesting magic with good variety that opens up many gameplay options. Them not being tied to innates means they also can spend their points in polarity affected trees and don't need to worry. They could do a lot of fun stuff and not just stand there, playing whack-a-mole with 3 styles. But that's about the amount of magic they should be able to use.

Then the real nukes need to have higher fizzle (no melee in plate should throw arrows), they should also receive their spellpower from the innates and the secondary effects or cast time or cooldown reduction or reagent reduction from higher skill levels. They're the domain of the main job mage players and should be difficult to pull off, but when you cast them successfully, they need to be rewarding.
I want to cast a few spells where a fighter places many hits, but for the same effect, giving mage a more tactical and burst feel to it, which is what made them great in other games (including UO).

There have been debates as to whether or not all spells should cost reagents.
I'm in favor of making them all cost reagents, as long as reagents are not too expensive and limited. Make them widely available for cheap enough to go out of the fight with the same profit every other template has (and while you're at it, do the same for archers and their arrows).

The damage elementals should deal better damage. It's okay for them to be squishy, but not when they lack the damage output. Having elementals out should not limit the focus pool, but reduce spellpower for the mage, so the end result is the same: Mage nuking without pet or with pet, the raw damage dealt should be in the sam realm, making elementals a stragetic spell: You'd cast them for situations when you need to be mobile or can't focus on one target only and need to split the damage among targets not close enough for AOE. Maybe a little surplus is good, because AI behavior is not always a great thing. Speaking of which, reduce the leash for pets, I happened top chase down my Water Elly through half of the zone, at which point we tackled 10 mobs and the elemental gave me a smug smile, then went poof and I was running for my life. This is only amusing for people watching the show, not the mage

The tank elementals need to have their aggro values raised or they need to have crowd control like snares, so they can do their job (keeping the stuff off of us). Right now, they're little, annoying DOTs mobs will always ignore. That makes them useless.

Another route you could go with elementals is, make them all aggressive like Blade Spirits in UO, so you have to recast them at the new spot before the pull. Make the elemental spawn point a ground target kind of thing, where you point the mouse at the spot you'd like it to have (with a max range so you can't cast an elemental at the camp 1000m away from you), in turn up their power considerably and make them deadly. They should ignore the mage for a few seconds, but once it had one mob aggroed, it should be aggressive towards the player, too. We need a disspell to get rid of them then, too. And they need to have a short duration, maybe 1 minute or 2.

That's it for now from the mage front in R24.
Please feel free to add where you think I forgot something or correct me where I'm wrong.
Also add opinions to give the devs a broader selection of viewpoints to pick from. We want mages to be fun. They don't need to be overpowered, but they have to be a viable path, it's a trope many players love to play and magic has always been a fun aspect of the Ultima games.

 

Excellent feedback.

 

I agree. That's some great feedback! The one thing I agree with you the most is the duration of some of the temporary buffs. I've pointed that out in a few forum threads before too.

While I wouldn't mind having a few spells that give you a quick burst of power (like a 10 second long, super-strength buff) that could resemble an adrenaline rush and give you an extra oomph at a critical moment to turn the tide of battle... I would also like to see some of the buffs being more long-term. The 20 minutes that kazeandi suggested would be nice, but I would be happy if they even lasted 10 minutes (like a food buff does currently).

That would at least last throughout an encounter or two with basic NPC mobs, and at least most of a good fight on a boss mob. Not to mention it would be a big help for PVP when you could rely on it lasting long enough to make it worth adding to your deck.

Most people I've spoken to about these short buffs agree that you're better off just casting a damage spell/skill instead. This is because the time it takes to cast the short buff is time taken away from auto attack and by the time you get a few extra damage out of it over the next 10 seconds or so... it pretty much just equals the same DPS as not using it.

 

The short power boost spells sound like a fun addition. I'd put them low enough so melees can have access, but add fizzle to it so it might work out (and then it rocks) or not (and then it eats focus), so it's a risk/reward kinda thing.

 

Several good points. Especially:

• Summon uselessness, especially Death
• Buff duration
• Spell min damage.

 

I agree that the healing tree needs to be looked at. Almost 99% of the in game avatars are using the healing tree, making everyone vanilla. There would be significantly more balance to the game, and differentiation if there were out of combat healing spells and some sort of limiting factor that kept every single avatar from using the tree...

 

Easy solution: Keep the small heal at tier 1 and make tier 2 risky to cast in plate due to high enough fizzle so it becomes unreliable. Make the bigger heal tier 3 and unobtainable in plate.
But even the small heal should heal a bit, right now it's Russian roulette. Throw your focus away for 4 hitpoints healed or hit for 50 damage. Or miss the hit or heal for 50hp. It's RNG at its worst.

 

Also, in case this didn't come across yet:
If you want to make tier 1 spells the "general use stuff", make it independent from the innates.
Means they don't get the malus for other trees, but they also don't get the boni.

Make everything that gets boni from innates fizzle like crazy in heavy armor (chain and plate), unless you skill into innates, at which point wearing chain/plate will put the focus malus on the character you now have in game for PETS (and then add some, so a knight can't throw more than 1 fireball, after trying 20 times).

In turn, remove the focus penalty for pets, but I went into that in the original post.

 

I personally think magic is all over the place and more a utility desired setup then combat focused. There are 3 fire AOE spells... why? Could just be me thought, i prefer a minimalist skill approach. less skills but more useful.

Players weapon picks their combat tree, including wands and staves.
Magic trees require the weapon to have an elemental base on it. wands get 1, staves get 2. can either have sun and moon be apart and give them more dmg skills, or not have it require it and have them more of a utility trees. Or remove them all together and adapt the other trees to replace them, fire for light and blinding for example.
A path for intellect, dexterity, and strength with skills associated for those stats.

would eliminate the everyone being a healer, force more dynamic playing styles and builds.

 

What I would do is:
Tier 1: Small heal, the "fists".
Tier 2: Innates, small nukes, buffs
Tier 3: Big nukes / AOE
Tier 4: Elementals / final spells

Tier 1 doesn't profit from innates.
Tier 2 starts the innates and gives you a small nuke, single target. Fast casting time, low damage, kind of like the "arrows" are now, but lower max, raise min damage.
Tier 3 adds a big DD nuke with longer cast time and the innates have to be higher to not fizzle, but high damage. Also an AOE.
Tier 4 could then be the elemental, which should then be a powerful entity, not the running gags they're now.

I find SOME means of healing important for solo play. What I don't want in an Ultima game is a game where you are "tank, dd or healer". That would be a game breaker for me, as then, there would be no reason to drop WOW or FFXIV for this game.

 

i thought this wasn't an ultima game but a new series in its own.

 

It is not "Ultima" only because the copyright lies at Electronic Arts.
You BET this would be called Ultima if RG could name it that.

This is very much an Ultima game, even if the name is "SOTA".

 

Great post @kazeandi !

Ironically the healing spell with the greatest AOE is healing rain in the Water tree. I found this on out when I cast it in combat and both me and my elemental had a raincloud over our heads. No matter how far we got separated our respective rainclouds would follow us.

Elementals (at least the ones I have) are only viable if you fight along with them or tank. I'm in West Ravenswood right now looking for that blasted missing hunter quest and have tested the following elementals in that environment :

Ice elemental - does the greatest damage but it's all short range. Has the most hitpoints.

Fire Elemental (via Jutaxpose) - does the greatest long range damage . Seems fairly quick too compared to Ice and Water but I really have to test movement speed.

Water Elemental - has the weakest damage of the 3. Long range fighter like Fire. This one should be fine once Port fixes the healing bug since this elemental is all about utility.
.
I'm wielding a dual polearm btw with healing spells whenever I take them along. I can imagine that a mage type Avatar would have a harder time making these useful.

 

I'd like to see the striking abilities separated from defensive stances. Maybe 3 slots for an striking ability deck and 2 slots for a defensive deck. Implementing randomness between different types of abilities would be tough in the traditional sense with real cards but with a computer shuffling on the fly let's play with lots of different size decks for dynamic avatar design.

 

How do you Juxtapose your Water elemental into a Fire one? I tried it, the spell didn't fizzle, but to no effect. When you do a combo Water elly with Juxtapose as second in line, both pop up just fine, but the result is a bored water elemental

 

I place Juxtapose in a fixed slot then let my water and ice elemental summons pop up in randomized slots. There currently is a bug where Jutaxpose won't work with the Water elemental card all the time but it always does with the Ice elemental. The card will change to the Fire elemental card if Juxtapose successfully combines with Ice or Water.

 

This thread is misleading. By "utility" I though you meant non-combat utility skills bruh lol

 

There is no non-combat utility in the magic trees, but there's combat utility.
You could go ahead and buff strength to carry more ore though - then it would be non-combat ^^

What kind of utility would you want in the game?

 

I would like to see non-magic utility skills added in, like lockpicking (at the very least), *non-magic* stealth (I should not have to learn moon magic to hide from you dude), weapon/armor repair (I heard this one's coming eventually), jumping, trap placement (please say there will eventually be player-made traps in-game), trap *disarming*, search/spot, swimming, barter/trading (for NPC merchants), persuasion/diplomacy or some equivalent social skill for major NPC interactions.... In other words, nothing outrageous, basically just your vanilla RPG set of skills... Preferably sooner rather than later... Sadly, I don't see SotA moving in this direction at all.

It certainly needs more robust interactivity to honestly claim that "sandbox RPG" title from the website, IMHO.

 

Hi Mike, the lock picking skill isn't in yet but it's coming. The Subterfuge skill tree also has Camouflage & Silent Movement , I"ve used these with light armor (leather) and they"re pretty good but am not sure how well they work with heavier armor. Stealth skills also break if you"re too near a mob or if the mob has keen senses (ie. wolves).

Repair kits are in for carpentry, tailoring and blacksmithing and these work for crafted equipment created on those respective tables. The kits though take significant resources in terms of leather & metal etc and it takes several to bring a damaged piece to 100 points of durability.

I love the idea of traps, rangers need it in particular because we rely heavily on bows and some mobs move very fast.