Why all death in pvp should result in being looted.

As you guys know, I think that PvP makes no sense without full loot.

I think that the death "system" is the worse possible version I could never imagine.

I just hope I have the choice NOT to loot when I win, thats my only caveat here.

I kind of dislike all the choices that were made for PvP... feels like some guild that never played UO dictated the rules and we use the "must not force anything on anybody" excuse way too often.

In fact we force pretty much everything on me, to the point my roleplay is totally choked. And I'm not leaving.

I think the whole argument is BS.

PS - I LOVE to be looted, especially by the less fortunate who managed to outwit me. But then again we'd need a good combat system for people to outwit me. meh.

 

It's very simple... I'm a VERY virtuous person by nature, in fact I learnt to respect karma the hard way and for a looong time now I've been redeeming myself.

But here I enter a world where virtue is FORCED upon me, simple isn't it.

When I see a fellow adventurer I really don't see someone virtutous, rather someone that follows the path to get the most possible rewards.

I'm kind of glad you ask the question again, because I've explained it so often and not once I've felt that someone really cared to understand what I mean.

 

No, just plain no, no it's not. Your virtue is all yours. Only difference here is other people get to choose to be a target of someone else's lack of virtue.

 

I'm not acting one bit like I'm the majority, but Ultimas and UO exept through some short lived hype were never targeted at "the majority" in fact it was so hard to complete any games (or even to start playing) that most people simply abandoned. I act as someone who comes from UO with mature expectations of what we should "admire" and most importantly what a real spiritual sucessor to the ultimas should encourage.

That however does not change how I handle my decision to pledge, I am extreemly dissatisfied with the way UO is even perceived amongst our community, and it seems insulting to me that many of its highlights are disregarded because everyone is so eager to put everything in the same bag.

I despise systems like /I ban thee and /kick... they were only pushed by people who cater to money instead of firm and time-tested roleplaying architectures.

I really doubt it, I know most people aren't playing because of the wipes, but I've been PVP flagged since day one and noone ever attacked me, I even went at low levels and stood in PVP areas and people also flagged pvp just passed me by, I was begging to be killed just to see if it would even make my heart pump one bit like UO did. I know it won't but thats also besides the point.

In fact pretty much everyone but some fine people on these forums who send me messages telling me they've stopped posting altogether on the forums because of people not even arguing logically and obvious "positive cheerleading trolling" going unpunished. There is so many worthy people that have been pushed away from our community that it seems unreal to me, and I'm used to having these kind of perspectives having survived UO, this is worse than with EA, and lets relativise here the scope and depth isn't the same at all.

It does bother me, everytime I log in, everytime I walk, all the time, in fact its a pain that is hard to bear and some might appreciate my perseverance in this.

It bothers me even more that we use this as an excuse for having a "theme park" instead of a real game where real heart and true virtue makes people shine and feel like they're on top of the world. I'm fighting 3 types of cancer myself, there are some days like today which my whole body burns with undescribable pain and I am unable to move or do much really.

Still what makes my heart beat, what is truely exiting still is, I don't use my pain as an excuse to blindly accept money as the ruler of all and the eye of sauron watching over my every move.

People paint a grim picture of UO because in UO you attracted like in real life what was really in your heart and soul. People who had negative experiences chose to have it that way, and I knew plenty of sick disabled people in UO who still learned to join in guilds and make tons of friends and were never ONCE griefed, and even if they did they would laugh it off.

I lost 3 houses full of rares and precious things, because of hacks, not even because of game mechanics and never shed one tear.

When I died and was blank looted, I was happy because that was a reason to change my armor color and perhaps make a new blacksmith friend who could give me better prices.

Every bad situation was good because it was a game, never shed ONE tear over those.

But you can bet I cried all my tears when the game was bought by real money brokers, when the storyline was trashed, when hackers were given privacy inside the game.

In short when all the principles of roleplaying were thrown out the window.

I feel that pain today more than ever... my physical pain and woes are really far behind in intensity.

 

Always amazed me how you can talk about something you never lived.

Have you ever had to defend your guild or community town from people who attacked you from the inside and outside, had to replace intrigue with truth and sociel niceties with courage and money driven ventures with love ?

Cause it sounds like you have no idea what I'm talking about and just want to say the exact opposite while ignoring my arguments, hmm... déja vu...

I am a target of many people's lack of virtue, every step of the way, right now.

 

I have shroud's intro music in the background and I was hearing "Phydra and Ristra sitting in a tree" lol

As I've said so many times before, I think just seeing the dev process and the art of this game being made from pretty much scratch I feel like I've got already twice my money's worth. There is not even a moment I thought of selling my pledge or felt anything bad about portalarium.

But I was told : Spiritual successor, no EA putting sticks in our wheels.

1+1=4 ... you know.

 

I'm always amazed how you fill in the blanks how ever you dream when you have no clue. Besides, what does "have you ever had to defend your guild or..." have to do with the subject at hand.

That can be done with the design on the table. Will always be possible. Only difference is people choose to be involved. It's not chosen for them.

I don't ignore your argument. Not when they are relevant.

 

The current setup we've got is basically focused on trying to achieve fairness in Open PvP settings; so long as combat has been initiated I agree with the OP, but in the case of fall/mob deaths I would prefer to see a plethora of scavenger mobs that can loot the corpse pretty much clean, leaving the loot (with some small % of degradation) free spoils for whoever kills the mobs later.

 

I would just point out that this will actually discourage non pvp folks from attending events in pvp zones and it opens up an opportunity for loot stealing by people who didn't actually earn the kill. Losing a kill to a mob because you weren't fast enough is a separate issue entirely and encourages people to gank while a player is fighting a mob which is dishonorable in itself.

Also, I think root takes care of the suicide issue in most cases and if you lose one or two here and there too it, I say root faster. This is most annoying I'm sure, but hey at least they're being clever.

This thread in itself is most clever as its a "full loot in all pvp situations" thread without actually saying it.

Edit: P.S. Grats on 20k Likes.

 

Well you just made my point Captn.

My point is that its not possible to have it organically built if everyone choses to have it. Two positives make a negative.

If you don't get what I mean then I guess maybe you haven't read any books or listened to any movies, or rock music or played D&D... if thats true then I apologize for being hard on you.

 

This kind of post, and I've got no problem with you Grave, but its exactly why the game stops being a game.

When you start to think about mitigating this and that and countermeasure compromises you have to make perhaps if some feel in a certain tide of mood combined with how they might project their role minus the pride they have as a collective would give in the end is all kinds of bad news for our community.

The oracle is watching...

 

This entire thread is suggesting a different loot model than what the Devs intended for the game. That's not a compromise. Furthermore it challenges the nature of a community driven game.

I vote no, its fine how it is now.

 

You're probably right on the issue at hand... however my philosophical senses are tingling, are we certain that we understand what community driven means ? When the community is built partly around donations ?

I'm just asking questions... I know what killed Socrates but its still the right thing to do.

 

I'm not speaking solely about donation dollars. If I or anyone else hosts an event in a pvp zone, Id hope that people come and attend regardless of their interest in participating. Currently, if a spectator dies as a result of ganking, the loss isn't so severe that it prevents them from ever participating again. The events are currently friendly and the atmosphere is positive.

If you push this a step further than its currently working today and enable full loot in all pvp situations, it goes from being a semi honorable and "no hard feelings" SOCIAL event into a "sorry about your luck, don't come if you don't like it" situation and I don't think that is the type of environment the Devs would want to encourage.

I understand and appreciate what is being asked for, but it doesn't lend itself to fun for all, it just opens up too many opportunities for griefing.

 

There is nothing organic about this. Nor is organic required.

Someone that does not wish to PvP will always choose to not PvP. The devs have decided to place that choice in game and not at log in. Same as the devs have decided to keep from placing a harsh line between PvP and not PvP. Full loot is a very harsh line.

The Oracle covers the organic part anyway.

 

But I wasn't referring to PvP really.

I want more death penalties for PvE!
I don't want open PvP at all, but I want there to still be danger and consequences in the world.

Where death is more than a way to get around a tuff area, like even on the world map, running through a nasty area should be a decision of risk vs reward just from the PvE , where you might run into a random encounter that you have a high chance of dieing in, and that death means something you could loose, that sword ya just made, and get set back a good deal of xp/skills you just gained. Makes ya think twice about running through certain areas/scenes, and when you do... its a rush!

I just don't like the idea that you can just shrug off death and keep on going, or throw bodies at bosses/challenges.

I do think tho that PvP should receive less death penalty, less xp/skill loss, but higher chance to loose more gear. Cuz its the nature to keep coming back, so not as harsh on the skills.
But for PvE, high xp/skill loss and less chance to loose gear, but still a chance.

Id like to se a dev chime in like @Chris or @RichardGarriott

 

Thats alright Ristra... I'll leave the thread just so you can relax I don't want to make this a pvp debate, even if its a thread about pvp... uh, right. Anyways

As for the oracle covering it all... well ok now I know you haven't read any books.

And I genuinely feel sorry that I have treated you so harshly, because I am lucky to have had such a rich childhood.

 

2/10 on the quality insult meter, sadly, you know no other way to communicate.

 

agreed that those games can be very fun, that is not in dispute. what is in dispute is, that is not the type of game that many of us pledged into, doing this would mean that port has turned a 180 in several KEY aspects of the entire project.

this is just speculation here, but i strongly suspect more would vanish than would enter as new fans. the level of loyalty would vanish as well because many of the hardcore ultima and uo fans that are here would lose faith in the project and project leads. loyalty like that, especially in the gaming industry, is rare and quite valuable to an indy company like this.

yeah, not cool. fortunately that was pve so it isn't up for debate here.

i wouldn't mind it being an option during character creation - i'd use one of my slots for permadeath type play and constantly re-roll with the slot, whenever i did something stupid (which would be fairly often lol). i think it could be fun, especially from a RP perspective to keep things fresh.

agreed. there will be points where i actually want to engage in it - but that will be by my choice, not yours. i will accept ANY consequence then, because those consequences are understood before flagging. i don't begrudge full loot, for thsoe that wish to partake - but i should not be forced to endure it if i do not want to.

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lets say player A chooses full loot upon character creation. Player B does not.
when player B kills Player A, then Player A can justify not getting looted entirely, by way of thinking that Player B did not want the gear and was being courteous.. that is not intrusive to Player A as well as Player B, because Player B had X amount of items to loot.
on the other hand, when Player A kills Player B, if Player B's loot all vanished, that would be overly intrusive to Player B, while only somewhat restricting the spoils from Player A because it is the same value of X as above.

I propose this:
in the second scenario where Player A (flagged full loot) kills Player B (NOT flagged full loot), they get the option to loot everything.
the first item(s) at the value of X (see above) are taken from Player B's corpse. the rest of the items are instantly duplicated (with a looted flag, as opposed to a makers mark) and Player A received the duped items.
Player B lost the value of X. Fine. they still kept the rest.
Both players get what they want, Both get the fun out of the experience and the loot tables aren't broken.

i'd recommend that "looted" items, the duplicates, have a lesser value to NPC vendors and a small (no more than 13%, [i randomly chose the number, it isn't important WHAT the number is, just that there IS a number]) reduction in stats. that will keep the system in place where player made items are still at a premium while procedurally generated items are considered "starter gear" like the devs have already intended. - note that this reduction does not pertain to the "Items X" - those are not dupilcated and do not lose stats.

this is very intriguing to me.. what about this variation:
ok, so you have your shardfalls, cool. you have your pvp zones, cool. you have pots that can flag pvp. cool. this is a new type of pvp zone.

ranking system that resets at set intervals (let the devs decide the duration on this).
let the 'winner' of the scene, choose the rules for the next rotation of it.
so if i join in and i love full loot but the scene is not set to that - then i work my butt off to win, so i can set it that way for next time. if you then come in and see it is full loot and hate full loot, you work your butt off to 'dethrone' me and then can set it to not full loot.
i'd have several settings, like weather effects (little random tornadoes or lightening strikes that can damage you, or clear skies, or weather that doesn't damage you), and loot preferences (full, partial, none), and kill preferences (honorable duels but not to the death - basically you dont' die you get reset to the zone start), spawn killing allowances, even amount of health and stamina you respawn with.
let the devs log the wins and settings, so they know what the players prefer for the 'average pvp zone' on a constant basis.

 

But thats the thing... its a one size fit all argument, it dosen't really fly high don't you agree ?

Since I'm 13 years old and have a modem I have played in MUDs and UO that were full loot full pvp environement, and not only that, there were bugs too, but never once I was griefed (exept losing my whole house content due to hacks, lol, but that don't matter its just pixels in my mind).

Technically speaking in my gameplay enjoyement, there was no griefing. Every tournament and event we held, you can bet that griefers were handled much faster than any GM could have ever done it with their god power.

Guilds were hired to protect such events, as it should be, it made people feel important and at the same time gave a purpose to an organically built community.

I'll even go further in my argument to say that often it was quite the reverse of griefing we witnessed, like when in some event some funny absentminded folk forgot they had a really expensive house deed in their pack, got it stolen, yet the thief got caught after a wild chase in the woods by two of the official "police" and you know what, they could have kept the deed and said the thief got away, but every single time people put PEOPLE and their HOMES above gold.

And not always because they had to, sometimes out of genuine passion.

Maybe I attracted those experiences because I was like that in my heart, even as I was roleplaying an evil character, I always had principles, always held true to the virtues.

But I beleive people are like that, if you give them the opportunity.

The problem we have is that noone here will have the opportunity, and thus the community will be brittle and easy to offend. Like a plant you've kept inside all winter and expose to the full sun which will inevitably rise.