Shame vs. Guilt Societies

I found an interesting article by David Brooks of the NYT back in March of this year.
The Shame Culture

"In a guilt culture you know you are good or bad by what your conscience feels. In a shame culture you know you are good or bad by what your community says about you, by whether it honors or excludes you. In a guilt culture people sometimes feel they do bad things; in a shame culture social exclusion makes people feel they are bad.

... The desire to be embraced and praised by the community is intense. People dread being exiled and condemned. Moral life is not built on the continuum of right and wrong; it’s built on the continuum of inclusion and exclusion.

... This creates a set of common behavior patterns. First, members of a group lavish one another with praise so that they themselves might be accepted and praised in turn.

... Second, there are nonetheless enforcers within the group who build their personal power and reputation by policing the group and condemning those who break the group code. Social media can be vicious to those who don’t fit in.

... Third, people are extremely anxious that their group might be condemned or denigrated. They demand instant respect and recognition for their group. They feel some moral wrong has been perpetrated when their group has been disrespected, and react with the most violent intensity."

EDIT: "Also everybody is perpetually insecure in a moral system based on inclusion and exclusion. There are no permanent standards, just the shifting judgment of the crowd. It is a culture of oversensitivity, overreaction and frequent moral panics, during which everybody feels compelled to go along."

Interesting article. HMMMM. I see many of these traits in the SOTA Community. Is this a shame culture?

 

I don't think we have that type of homogeneous amount of users to be generalized the way on this article, especially when everyone is from all over the world.

If anything it's a multi cultural group of people who are passionate about the development of the game made by Ultima series and UO creators.

 

It's not about multiculturalism or how "diverse" we are...the type of shame culture Brooks is referencing is new to the Internet and crosses any boundaries we can think of in a traditional "guilt" based society. Multi-cultural populations are not immune from shaming those outside of groups, like SOTA is now.

EDIT: I meant SOTA was a group that is capable of this "shaming", not that it IS doing it.

 

I think that this culture existed before there computers. A culture deeply rooted. I think people turn to video games like this,
to evade that reality ... could it be ...
Perhaps the culture of shame disappears, the day we feel as an avatar in the real world. regards

 

That's a good observation...but Brooks even brings up the existence of "shame cultures" in Asia (e.g. Japan) are different...I don't know. I'm just bringing it up for discussion.

 

I think what Brooks is trying to so say is, in some societies (and especially with the emergence off online communities) the traditional "good/bad" dichotomy is replaced by another scale: how popular you are. The rules have been changed from one of classical morality to the rules that popular people put in place, regardless of merit.

"The guilt culture could be harsh, but at least you could hate the sin and still love the sinner. The modern shame culture allegedly values inclusion and tolerance, but it can be strangely unmerciful to those who disagree and to those who don’t fit in."

EDIT: added quote

 

I understand, and it seems perfect.
This is a very ineresante post, my quality of English does not allow me to express everything I think, sorry
But I can tell you what I think happens a lot in my city and surroundings.
I always thought that was something common, but I see that in every part of the world affects perhaps in a similar way ... but different.

 

Your English is very good! I understand you, no worries. (Have you thought about volunteering for the translation effort?)

Interesting, I had to look up Fuenlabrada! At any rate...yes cliques of "popular people" have set the rules for the rest of us since time immemorial. The difference here is that, this is supposed to be an egalitarian 21st Century "safe space", and seems to use public shaming as a tool to further a goal (I'm not sure what that goal is, frankly.)

 

It's old. Really old.

You can see this in religious and secular groups all through the ages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_rejection

 

True...it is widespread and old, but that doesn't mean *every* religious or secular group does this.

And again, we're talking about modern, Western societies here...guilt cultures are much more populous than shaming ones. That's what the glorious Internet has brought us Trust me, I've shamed people before online, it's the easiest way to get someone to shut up. "PILE ON THE IDIOT!" Except it's not so fun when you are the one being shamed.

 

is correct, there are people who fail the shame of others for their own purpose. (His own goal).
In my view, this is very bad. This in my opinion is what makes a person with shame flee from reality, or retracts, and a retracted person back with shame.
This happens when you have a difficulty itself, another person sees it and aprobecha of this situation.The result is that person retracts, to see that we can not and others do.

You: If you take advantage of the cringe. It is that good things dento left you, and you need a doctor and friends.

You: you feel all the shame while, and that does not allow you to be yourself. please explodes as a big bang and share your person with this filthy world, maybe you change into something better ...

 

Haha...I kinda lost you on that one @Sir Gamy Are you telling me to blow myself to change into something better?? (It's ok, many people have this reaction to me).

 

I'd argue against his claim since this isn't about the current/latest communication technology. It's about human nature and as such we are pack animals.
The same claim could have been made and was made when we got telephones, etc, so the tech isn't key.

Also his Shame vs Guilt culture doesn't hold up to observation. This since all groups use both as long as the group is in majority neurotypicals.
as pack animals we want to cooperate and go out of our way to do so from an early age.
Part of what makes such cooperation work is by expressing dislike of things outside the group and the groups objectives. The good old human 'frown' works wonders in face to face interaction. Use any public transportation as a group of enthusiastic teenagers and the attempts at shaming is almost instant.

Things like the internet just make a lot of the interaction much more effective in some ways and much less effective in other ways. Thumbs up and thumbs down being an excellent example.

 

Stopped reading here.

EDIT: Didn't REALLY stop reading, but if your idea to to equate humans to "pack animals", any "logical" fallacies you derive from that presumption are specious.

 

I'm not express themselves well, but I really like this post.
the mesage is for everyone.
If you feel ashamed, exploited till you are yourself.
When he finds himself is the maximum felicity.
if you get it ... Never forget you share it with others.
and would better help others find it.
Thanks Mercster it as your done with this post.

 

I think that no matter the place.
matter the action, and the intention with others, and this in oneself the good or do you all just

 

Ohh...you mean, can't choose which to pick? You hate what the video shows, but you like why it was shown? Do i hit UP or DOWN?! I've noticed that too. It's analogous to a "bad behavior point system" that noone knows exists, or how it works. Confusion is the rule of the day.

 

My point is there is not enough people to form a " mainstream" opinion at the moment. If you look at the threads especially on the feedback forum. There are always someone argue about something. You can't be included or excluded if there is no circle/group to do that in the first place.

 

If you need that many people have a point of view to be taken as correct, and this makes losing weight to what he says a minority ...
We are already causing shame to think otherwise, which is not correct etc .. They are moral values. and it depends on each one as expose and take them.
But if a large group of people think something is wrong? such as that the earth is not round, was something wrong in his time ...

It is really a common thought obigatiorio have to be taken as good?
this is to have very little morality.
Each opinon of a living being expressed is valid, so I do not see it, not have respect for the Ageno thought. and make a common thought is something that is long in politics in order to govern not to hear the opinion of the governed.

 

I agree