I need help understanding the regional economy theme.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Jace3, May 3, 2016.

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  1. Jace3

    Jace3 Avatar

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    NOW I understand! The problem seems to be that I was looking too far ahead too soon without knowing the full scope of what is intended in the game. As I saw the game today the way things were being done made little sense. As I look at it through your eyes I see how the world will look when finished.
    I think Agra had the idea of it as I did we just didn't see far enough ahead to know how it is all going to be pulled together. From reading your post and the others above you I see now it isn't just about a banking system but that of a much more complicated marketing system. Now I just have to figure out what part of all this I will be playing. Up till now I have been looking at it as a Gatherer/producer/crafter/seller. Now I can pick which part of that I want to settle into.
     
  2. enderandrew

    enderandrew Legend of the Hearth

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    Let's say that blacksmiths are hanging out in Etceter because they can get plenty of ore from the nearby mines. So there are tons of swords, armor, etc. produced there. There is tons of supply and not much demand. So prices will be low there. If you just throw 100 swords in the bank in Etceter and pull them out in Brittany, then regional pricing goes out the window because supply and demand become the same everywhere. Now, if you can fill up your backback with say 40 of them and take the time to travel to Brittany, then we're rewarding people who take the time to be merchants or transport goods. But not all goods are available everywhere automagically.
     
  3. WrathPhoenix

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    Yep! It's just a matter of it's sometimes hard to remember its a title in production. Many want to view and relate to the game as it is now...the final product is going to be much different. Feel like I need to make a "We are here" map on a development roadmap some day to remind people XD

    I didnt know about the plans for the virtual economy when i started actually. I didnt even know agriculture was going to be a thing. I didnt even know that when I pledged up to a higher level. I actually started peeling back the layers several months ago and realizing how it all came together. And recently i've enjoyed it, been making my living as a farmer and an alchemist our in elysium :)
     
  4. Womby

    Womby Avatar

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    You have successfully explained what a regional economy is, and how they plan to achieve it. What you have not done is explain why Portalarium wants it, and what benefits it has for the player over a global economy.

    I am not an economist or a game designer, but I think the answer lies in looking at the problems that might arise if you do not have a regional game economy:
    - Global fast travel allows one place to become a retail megacentre . People go there because that place has more shops; people put shops there because more people go there; this is an unstable positive feedback loop that will inevitably lead to one location dominating. It will be controlled by a handful of players who can afford the secondary market cost of housing in that prime location.
    - Everywhere else becomes almost dead as far as retail is concerned.
    - Crafters can either sell to a small number of customers who have run out of travel scrolls, or they can sell to huge guilds at prices dictated by the guilds.

    Unrealistic dystopian fantasy? Perhaps. I could be completely wrong about human nature.
     
  5. Jace3

    Jace3 Avatar

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    I saw how Luna in UO got to be as big as it did. I always thought it was a shopping nightmare to go there and buy something. I hope we never see that here.
     
  6. WrathPhoenix

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    That is true womby, not sure i set out to explain the why, I always thought it was self explainatory. Ultimately, a dynamic economy is something that they want to achieve for a myriad of reasons.... but i think you laid out some things that it is trying to AVOID. However, There are a lot of other reasons such a dynamic economy can benefit the game not least of which is with a fully dynamic regional economy there is no one sink or faucet but rather things can adjust on the fly. Its easier to absorb large sums of materials and money and makes it harder to break the overall economy over the long term.

    But frankly? I think they just want to do it because it's hard. It's hard to do and its a cool thing to have and few games have done it and even fewer have done it right. I think that's one of the real reasons they have their sights set on such a system. They are dreamers.
     
  7. Whyterose Flowers

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    In our real world, our banks have branches in various locations.
     
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  8. Duncan O. McDermott

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    To me just getting to the game the last few weeks all of this is almost too much to absorb. I have to take it in small doses so I am not overloaded. The game looks so nice that it is hard to remember it is still in development. Great posts everyone, it helped me understand a problem I didn't even know was there. Grats OP
     
  9. enderandrew

    enderandrew Legend of the Hearth

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    Money can be transferred digitally. If you put a physical item in a safety deposit box in LA, you can't just magically pull it out in NYC. And realism isn't always the best goal in game design. Reality isn't always fun or balanced.
     
  10. Hermann von Salza

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    there is an ol' saying. Money=Time Invested. as much fun as it was to recall and gate travel, and I think it is a shame to not have it in the game. But acknowledges and agree's the principle being applied.

    HOWEVER, some -how you [ need to make it more entertaining while traveling. ]
     
  11. 2112Starman

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    Imagine 1 million people are playing SOTA in January of 2017. We all technically play in the same "world" although it is instanced. However, that means that you have the opportunity to actually play with each of those million people because we are not in "shards".

    The designers have designed the game that you have all the basics in your region. You can farm 1-5 skull areas and mines. There are rarer things in your area that you can take (with penalty) to other regions and sell them for more to the people there.

    If you look at say R26, all 1 million people would probably want to live either in Adoris or Owls since they were central hubs. The designers are doing away with central hubs for the entire game and making regional hubs. this will disperse the population across the map and make it worth it to you to go to other locations around the entire map.

    It will create the feeling of a much larger game and map. This will also create economy since you will need to make things in your region, sell them in another as well as buy things in your region that you cant find there for what you need.
     
  12. 2112Starman

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    You cant access your safety deposit box (with all your gems and jewels) sitting in your bank in Portland from the branch in New York. Money doesn't matter in game, it works the same as going to any bank since you actually always carry it on your persons in game.
     
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  13. Whyterose Flowers

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    What games have regional economies? I tried searching online and did not see any, I would be interested in reading about games with regional economies.
     
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  14. WrathPhoenix

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    The most prolific and well known would be eve online. The economy was done quite well there. Entropia Universe being another and in fact that game's economy is so important that they in fact have a real life in game currency to real life currency conversion. But Entropia does not have a focus on craft and trade, so their travel restrictions are for very different reasons and through different means. In example, it actually requires you to buy fuel that's produced by players to fuel your car/plan/ship to get from one region or planet to another. Meanwhile in eve, regional economy is not necessarily controlling resource access per region but rather availability of goods via players crafting them. Thus the most dangerous areas often have the most expensive stuff because of the travel time through PVP space in order to transport them there.

    Then there's archeage and wurm online who tried to do a much softer version of regional economics by making things growable or lootable in some places but not others. Really in the case of archeage it was mostly just frills. UO *launched* with a very dynamic economy that went right down to the number of animals who spawned but it was scrapped as the players exploited it and killed most every thing that was availible to kill.

    All of the above games did their own part for regional economics and each tried to accomplish a different facet of what SotA is trying to do but each lacked the other supporting features of some of the other games. SotA's trying to build an economy and infrastructure that leans on and borrows from all of the four core bullets I put out there and probably some other things I did not really remember when typing the initial message.
     
  15. Spoon

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    Nah, it is mentioned pretty much every time they get asked about banking. However it is only in hangouts *sigh* so not easy to quote or reference. But copy paste this into a browser and you can see they mentioned it in the latest telethon again:
    Code:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkDCtuWe2rg&feature=youtu.be&t=6875
    Unknown how it will be implemented but I don't think it will be like the commodity deeds. Instead you simply stand at the bank in Brittany, click on a stack in the Ardoris bank, and select the Transfer service - it prompts a "this will cost X gold etc" and you accept or not.
    However like with everything not implemented the actual implementation can differ a lot from the plan.

    Not really. That is where the beauty of Purchase Orders come in. You just post a Purchase Order with X gold for Y commodities. Then it is up to the player market to fullfil it for you.
    It will only mean that you will need to keep some track of when to offer more or less gold to get someone else to do all that hauling for you.

    On top of that there are several trans-guild business setups which are already planning on solving this, for a fee, between the different regions. So selling and buying resources in bulk.

    It is very much linked to the Limited Land business concept.
    If limited land is supposed to be a thing then there is a need for each region to have some hotspots so that not all try to fight only to be in one megaspot.
    Thus by creating regional economy where resources and bonuses are local you get a dispersal effect in where players will want to set up shop / get land.

    Now the motivation that they have given early is that it makes Crafting and Economy a much more valid career choice appart from just adventuring. Thus creating local hubs of Supply and Demand, creating extra emergent gameplay for those who like that.

    The most obvious example is
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve_Online#Economy

    However there are plenty of MMOs (and muds back in the day) which had regional resources, which emergently created regional economies. Later examples of that would be
    http://www.entropiauniverse.com/entropia-universe/the-planets/
    (where you also might want to look at the land selling model...)
     
  16. Balandar

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    I wish my llama would grow up and haul resources for me. :( My spindly arms are meant for casting magic not carrying tons of ore. Over-encumbered and unable to recall or teleport makes for a long walk. o_O
     
  17. Katrina Bekers

    Katrina Bekers Localization Team

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    Not exactly.

    I said that if you don't want to waste time arranging a DHL/Fedex service to haul goods around, then someone else will and you will conveniently have every good from around the world close to you - with a small price margin for your added convenience.

    There's an entire world of trading/caravaning sub-profession (let's call it play style) to be exploited if the value of goods is different in different areas of the game. It's the very principle of trading! I didn't say you NEED to be a trucker, I just hinted that there's a place for truck drivers to bring goods to you, if you prefer to be only the final customer, and enjoy the play style YOU enjoy most. And also a market for harvesters, for refiners, etc.

    I see that invariably the discussion included my preferred game, EVE Online.

    EVE got its market right EXACTLY because you cannot instantly move the humongous amounts of resources needed to sustain industry (and a sustained industry sustains a war machine, and the war machine destroys what the industry built, so it creates the need for miners and haulers, in a cycle, ad infinitum).

    Traveling with a freighter full of ore is risky and slow, and the industrialist waiting your load at the trade hub is well aware that the final price he's paying includes the markup for the trader.

    Look, this is just today's devblog detailing the monthly market stats in EVE: https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/monthly-economic-report-april-2016/ as you can see (or rather, imagine), the graphs are divided by region, because the game has ONLY regional markets. You can see stuff on sale (or on buy orders) only within your region, and some trade hubs naturally popped up where buying player looking for maximum convenience meet selling players looking for maximum profit. Jita, Amarr, Rens, Dodixie... Systems where the minerals from one side of the galaxy are brought to be sold to producers from the other side of the galaxy, to become the ships that are used in the third side (!) of the galaxy.

    You could as well be part of the latest group and totally ignore the intricacies, subtleness, massive organization needed by the production chain before you sit in your new, shining battleship. But nonetheless, the metals it's built off, come from a remote asteroid field and may as well have seen the rest of the universe before becoming your hull and guns and warp engine.
     
  18. Earl Atogrim von Draken

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    Nuff said!
     
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  19. Rasmenar

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    In response to the OP, I'll provide some anecdotal evidence of what a regional economy is:

    At the moment, I spend most of my time mining in the Etceter Crag Mines. Enchanting requires a LOT of gold, and recently Etceter was also re-worked to have a large quantity of Iron available on the first two floors, so I'm able to stock up on gold for enchanting, and mine iron for sale/trade since I don't do a large amount of my own item crafting. Currently, I have no home of my own, so I am using the facilities at Port Phoenix and storing my loot in the bank (which, without paying the gold to upgrade your bank, has VERY limited space, so I have to be picky with what I keep until I can afford storage upgrades). I am currently working on a stockpile of gold for enchanting gear (plan is to buy crafted gear, enchant it, and sell it for a premium) as well as engraving kits to sell to bolster my liquid assets. I debated selling engraved tools, but there's no skill required for engraving a tool as of right now so it's better to sell the kit and let the customer pick what tool they wish to upgrade instead of stocking up a variety of tools and seeing which ones move faster. But, to do this (since at the moment, I do not have access to a vendor in Port Phoenix) I have to travel to a popular area hub and list on public vendors.

    The closest large city besides Port Phoenix is Aerie, literally a double click away once you leave the city, so that's where I plan on listing my gear. But, since Gold is so easy to mine very close by (etceter crag mines), it's likely that once the servers are more populated after the final wipe, players who harvest in my region might choose either Aerie or Etceter as their preferred city to list goods on the public vendor. If that becomes the case, I have the option to load myself up with loot to sell and travel to another hub (Ardoris, Owl's Head, Brittany for example) and list my goods there. I make my own teleport and recall scrolls, so if anyone on my friend's list is online in one of those areas, the journey is fairly quick and easy, but it costs me a resource to make it (at least the teleport scroll, most likely the recall too as I am lazy), so I either have to purchase replacements or make new. So, selling in locations far away from Elysium becomes something that I either have to invest time in (and worry about the amount of goods I can carry per trip, as it's difficult to cut through control points when you're encumbered) or invest resources in (the fast travel items). Meaning, I won't choose to sell elsewhere unless the larger market allows for me to move the products more quickly or for more gold.

    This is of course all until I have saved up the gold to purchase my own home and vendor. Once I've done that, my vendor gets stocked up, I write up a metric ton of handbills/a detailed forum post advertising my products (Enchanted gear, custom enchanting, potions, scrolls, and engraving kits) and I push my vendor as one that players can reliably find those products on. As long as I keep him stocked up regularly, reputation builds and I become a regional attraction for people seeking to buy my products.

    That is of course the theory. I had my vendor set up during the last wipe phase and did a fair job keeping him stocked with gems and potions for a couple of weeks, but I have trouble staying motivated knowing that none of it is persistent until the final wipe. I've got somewhere around 630 hours logged in to Shroud so far, which might seem like a lot to some but is minuscule compared to the hours put in by some of the community leaders. They could probably better explain regional economies.
     
  20. Satan Himself

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    UO, pre-Luna, with basically unlimited recall abilities, easily supported vendors ALL OVER THE MAP. Near cities, in PRTs, and in the middle of a forest. There is no reason that can't be done in SOTA.

    I continue to believe that regional economies in SOTA are like socialism. Interesting idea on paper, unachievable as conceived and undesirable in practice. We are giving up freedom of movement, annoying a large part of the playing population, wasting a ton of playing time and generally lowering the fun-factor of this game by introducing these artificial, protectionist mechanisms like control points, cooldowns, etc.

    It's not that regional economies can't develop. It's that they would have developed anyway, without all these fun-killing annoyances.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2016
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