What about taxing gold transfers between players?

I approve this sarcasm A++

 

I presently have eight nine properties (whoops, forgot about my POT's crafting center), four of which are taxed, all of which are placed in game and working as the economy intended. The deck I use also favors high level spells that consume a great many reagents. I also craft, so I spend my income buying fuels instead of lottery tickets.

If player-to-player transactions were taxed in the way I'm thinking they would be, the average casual player is EXACTLY the player that would be targeted here for finding the sweet spot in tax rates... it's that player's income that would have to be considered when establishing a set rate of taxation for player-to-player transactions. I believe a per transaction gold sink between players, if done properly, would be negligible in such a way that even high volume traders in game would be able to work with it. The idea of what I propose is a gold sink that remains steady and applies to everyone equally.

 

The player wouldn't even see the tax, well they would, but it shouldn't create a hardship. When you bring up a trade window, and based on what is traded - that's what is taxed. That there's not a tax on player-to-player transactions is really more mind boggling than reasons needed to implement one. It shouldn't be a burdensome tax, but it should be something. The gold sink is needed for a strong economy.

 

Haha, you jest - but ferry rides will likely be taxed or incur some type of service fee.

 

No thank you.

 

If taxes were shared by all, perhaps some of the more insane taxes (property taxes, vendor fees) could be relaxed... might even inspire people to start putting those properties they're all holding onto in game - followed by new players feeling empowered to play and contribute to the economy by working towards property ownership. I can understand why everyone's first reaction would be to say no. But the economy needs gold sinks that work, that part of the game will never go away. All you folks that are dead set against reasonable taxation, what do you propose could be implemented as sustainable gold sinks that target all players?

 

Oh LOL - that's the cause. Taxing the poor and relaxing the rich. No thanks - that would be too close to reality.

 

Haha - except in this game the rich have tax free properties and commission-free vendors and enough complimentary gold COTOs and Royal scepters to pay taxes for a year on a few add-on deeds... you could also read this to mean that the rich players pay no taxes, period... Oh and we get 500 free gold per account per day + 100g crier visits per account. So, right now, the rich are doing pretty darn well. One of the problems in the game is that the player base is nothing but rich players.

Which leads to the question of where are the gold sinks? Right now, the only significant gold sink is the raffle... and that sink isn't hitting the marks - and it will eventually expire. The bet is on how many of those deeds get placed in game... should be all of them - but is more likely to be just a small percentage of deeds won.

Crafting fuels and reagents can be gold sinks, but like property ownership they're only for a select group of players. Right now, all players (all accounts) get free income. The average player home owner will eventually pay property taxes, vendor fees, and soak up all the fallout from marketplace inflation.... and that'll still be a select demographic.

Without sustainable gold sinks inflation will eventually crash the market.

 

Down with Taxes and those that would tax us. No tea for me.

 

Rofl... two thumbs up.


I also recommend we have a "walking tax", and a "standing still tax".
--> If you're walking around, all movement should be logged, and you should pay a tax for every step you take... and double if you're running.
--> If you're trying to cheat the system by standing still... then that should be taxed too!

People around here are getting off way too easy!!!!


But seriously....

1.) Too many taxes destroy an economy.
When tax rates become too high they actually have the opposite affect, and generate LESS & LESS TAX. This is based on the mechanic that when tax rates are too high they actually REDUCE the ability of people to GENERATE INCOME... and therefore there is less income to be taxed. (Any first year economics major would surely understand this.)
* So, this well-known economic principle acts as proof that tax rates can reach a level where they eventually cannibalize an economy and reduce income generation.

2.) The fact that "too many taxes will destroy an economy" is a well-known fact, and it's even known, and used, by the devs.
This is why the devs consider all these taxes a "gold sink".
The taxes in this game are INTENTIONALLY included to do nothing but deflate the economy, and are thereby used as one of the "economy balancing mechanisms" by the devs.
(My personal opinion is the devs deflate the economy too much... but it's their prerogative to do whatever they think is best.)

3.) Taxing player-to-player trades would continue to give even MORE and NEW unfair advantages to those with tax free vendors... eventually creating a net loss for the entire game.
a. I believe all of the early backers SHOULD be compensated for their money and support... it's right and fair for them to get special rare items, and also get a few advantages in the game.
b. However... it doesn't make sense to keep stacking up advantage atop advantage, and creating new advantages ad infinitum, until new players are relegated to becoming nothing more than 3rd class citizens. This isn't going to make the game a success when it goes into public release.
c. I LOVE tax free vendors... I'm going to buy MORE of them. But I don't require new rules that make them even more powerful, and which disadvantage other players... I don't need that to play or compete. And it isn't good for the game.
d. In a nutshell: If you give the early backers TOO MANY advantages... it will prevent new players from coming in, and that will eventually destroy the very game the early backers spent so much money to play.
* All things in moderation.

4.) The ONLY PURPOSE of a tax on player-to-player trades would be to give MORE ADVANTAGES, & NEW ADVANTAGES, to people with tax free vendors.
a. The people with tax free vendors are ALREADY RECEIVING every advantage they were promised... they aren't being cheated out of anything.
b. Taxing player-to-player trades would only give them NEW and INCREASED ADVANTAGES... which they were never promised.
c. How many new advantages do early backers, and big spenders need? Can't they be happy by receiving what they were promised? Should we really keep INCREASING their advantages after they already received every advantage that was coming to them? Should we keep increasing their advantages, for no reason, until new players won't want to come here?
d. Again, I like tax free vendors and intend to buy more of them, but that doesn't make it fair to keep disadvantaging other players more and more, thereby making the vendors more and more powerful, and proportionately... just making the game more and more unplayable for new people.
* WHERE DOES IT END?
I'm all for tax free vendors... I'm all for the "big spenders" getting cool stuff and some cool advantages for their money... but where does it end? There has to be a limit. There has to be a limit to these "scope creeping" increases of unfair advantages. If you buy a new car, the car dealer doesn't keep adding new stuff to your car each week! If you bought a car, and got what you were promised... then go on your way and be happy! If you bought some game advantages, and you received them... be happy! We shouldn't keep asking for more and more unfair advantages, especially ones that were never even promised. The more that unfair advantages are created, the more that new players will keep away... and if there aren't new players, the game will die.

5.) Too many taxes will just drive people away from the game, creating AVOIDANCE and MIGRATION... eventually killing the game.
a. MIGRATION: In real life, both businesses and consumers often move to different cities, or even different countries, where there are lower tax rates... and life is easier. People in games do the same thing. When games become so cumbersome and ridiculous that they aren't fun... players LEAVE, and play something else.
b. AVOIDANCE: When new players are looking for a new game, they read reviews. They simply aren't going to spend their money on a game where everything they do is taxed so heavily it isn't even fun. New people won't come to a game like that. They have other options. They'll just go play a different game... and this game will die.



And if you disagree... well... of course you do.
The forums would be boring if anyone agreed on anything.

 

I agree.

 

It's entirely my fault the conversation has strayed so far from the OP, which was taxation on player-to-player transfers of gold. I think it's great that pledges get so many advantages, but there's a point where the economy must come first. It's fun to say no to taxes and shake our fists at the sky, but to what end?

Who would really feel the whip if there was a player-to-player tax on gold transfers... Would it be the casual solo player that shared their loot in a party of casual solo players? Or would it be the top 10% of players?

Taxing player-to-player trades would do the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. A player-to-player tax would hit the top 10% of the player population hardest. And even then, it would be a sink that targets the population on the whole, not a specific group of players. This wouldn't need to be a complex tax strategy that involves pledge rewards and loopholes. It could easily be incorporated into our economy as a flat tax that is applied to items traded between players... and in the context of this conversation, it would only apply to gold.

 

I think I understand this. Lemme have a stab at this......

I call for a PvP tax.

All of the loot that the winner gains as a spoil of war gets taxed including skulls, jawbones and such. Those guys are getting around the system by not paying taxes on their rewards.


A TAX ACROSS ALL OF NOVIA!!!

 

Maybe I can just tax people with my Royal Scepter at will. That's a gold sync..... or terrorism or something.

 

If it were up to me, I would change taxable deeds to tax free, and have tax free deeds now in existence entitle the owner to receive gold each month as a bonus for the deed. Since taxes just take gold out of circulation, and provide no benefit, reversing this would cause more in game gold to flow, and maintain for backers a big benefit for their investment in tax free deeds.

 

As a Governor it would also be within logical reason for me to be able to add a tax in my POT on every transaction. I won't have a population but I could do it.


NO NEW TAXES.

 

^ I think in port's most recent postmortem discussion, they were saying how 10% of the playerbase controlled over 90% of the economy. I believe port is trying to move us towards greater balance. But I suppose that's tough to do when pay-to-win elements are omnipresent.

Not only that, these same players probably are the ones who discovered great xp strategies to get alvl 100+ and 40 GM skills :/ all patched just recently. I'm all for advancement, it's just there will always be that few who will out of their own ingenuity get far ahead of the curve (sometimes beyond what the system intended, that's a feature of early access though LOL).

That's why I agree with previous avatars that suggested some type of cap, though we do have a system of diminishing returns already on skills.

(this was in response to some ideas regarding taxation and/or giving tax-free deed holders some type of compensation)

 

I doubt that any additional gold sinks are necessary right now or they wouldn't be adding in free oracle and crier gold. If and when more are necessary, I hope that it's in the form of things that people actually want to buy instead of just things that are required to be functional or avoid misery.

 

What new gold sinks would you add?

Right now there only a couple:

• There is the raffle, which pulls some pull gold out of the economy but it's only a short term solution.
• There are reagents for folks that use a ton of high level skills. This is hit or miss depending on the player and play style. Also, reagents can be harvested pretty easily, so this is maybe an ok gold sink for a small percentage of the player base.
• There are crafting fuels. This is one that always gets me - I'm always giving up gold to the crafting merchant! Still, more of a targeted sink than anything else... only the people that craft will feel it.
• Durability. I guess this can be considered a gold sink. Having to purchase repair kits all the time is definitely considered overhead.
  
• Property taxes. There likely are very few property deeds placed in game that are soaking up taxes right now. Maybe this will increase in the future... maybe not. Either way, it's only a potential gold sink for players that own a taxable land deed.
• Public Vendors - probably the most active gold sink in the game.
• In game vendors - at this point in the game, private vendors that charge a commission are probably about as rare as placed taxable property deeds.

I don't think I'm missing anything... so basically, there are only handful of gold sinks in the game right now and probably not that many folks subject to them. For me, I'm only paying into crafting fuels and the occasional repair kit.

 

Normally... I like sales tax as it allows people to defer paying taxes if they choose not to spend their money.

However in THIS economy, I'd advocate for the opposite. A hoarding tax. Players holding gold over a certain amount (say 10k) incur a daily tax scaled based upon the amount of their hoard.

Comes right out of their account and sinks back into the gold pool. The idea is that holding gold should be "penalized" rather than spending it.