Some comments on crafting, from a long-time crafter

I'm sure at least something I say will tick off someone, so please keep your pitchforks and torches in the upright stored position until you get through the whole thing.

I've been crafting in MMORPGs as long as they've been around. I also craft in other games, and even own games that are nothing but crafting. I don't know why, but I enjoy it. In MMORPGs and other adventure type games, I enjoy the extra flavor they lend. Sometimes they are useful, sometimes they are annoying, but I at least will try them.

When crafting came into SoTA in the teens of releases, I was at the benches like everyone else. I really hated trying to find my tool in the backpack and dragging it to the table, but I appreciated the realism. I will say that how it is handled now is much better. It also follows a process similar to what many modern games have with a book and clicking a recipe to load it. I can see change has happened and hope more is coming.

I spent ~10 hours solid crafting this weekend, and since coming back have crafted a little bit daily. I've also been gathering as much as possible, which led to me being able to do a nice long stretch of crafting twice. I have to applaud the detail and realism that goes into how crafting works...and also decry it for that same reason.

Before you say "this is an unfinished game", yes, I know. That is why I am giving the feedback.

Crafting is too realistic right now, and too much of a time sink. I know that it takes a very long time to craft a pair of boots, or a chestpiece, here in the real world. But that should not be the case in the game. People play for a distraction and it takes too long to craft. I think the crafting is actually many steps in the right direction and could use tweaks to improve it. Based on what I've seen work and not work, plus what I've read from posters on this and other forums, here's a set of recommendations:

1. Gathering time is too long. Gathering is too slow. It should be sped up 25%-50%. This is nothing but a time sink and the long gathering time doesn't help anyone. Let the player get their goodies and move on.

2. All basic recipes should be discoverable. A lot of people decry this on all forums and in game. There is a small minority, including some staff, who disagree. To those staff let me say this - I can 100% appreciate you want to have rarity. I support that. I am not saying that the Royal Blue Mystical Flaming Plate of the Avatar should be discoverable. That can be purchased, or more likely, dropped. It can be unteachable, so that you have your player interaction. There really is no good reason why I have to teach someone to chop wolf meat. Dragon meat? Sure, make me buy a recipe for that. Anything skill 50 and below, unless it's a special (seasonal? limited?) should be discoverable or already loaded into my cookbook. That's your entry into this skill...so I can find out if I really want to do it.

Subpoint here, I really like how the teachable mechanic works. It's clever, simple, and encourages players to work with each other.

3. Speed up subcombines. I've warmed up to having to do my leather one place and tailoring another. But tanning should be faster. I have actually tanned leather IRL and I know it takes a lot of time to do it right, but again this is a game. All the "support" crafting things should be sped up like gathering should be, around 25%-50%. And if you are doing it in a batch, you should go faster as you complete more in the batch (shameless copy from GW2). Regular crafting could use a speed up too, but if you adjust these "support" crafting items, it might not be truly needed.

4. Weights need a second pass. I am fairly certain I saw this on a work list, but the weight on crafted items is all over the place. Raw materials are crazy heavy (especially at low levels) making gathering difficult but when crafting and I combine two items together and it gets heavier that really seems odd. I have a feeling materials throughout the game are getting/need to get a revamp. Arrows and regents are something that have a realistic weight for the real world but in a game need to be lighter for practical reasons.

I hope this helps. I have some others that I thought of, but I'm not sure they would impact the game as much as these. I think that crafting needs something to really make it sparkle as well, since it is pretty generic as a system, but I don't have an awesome suggestion. I'm sure someone else does.

 

good feedback

 

If I may add commentary here.. just some thoughts as I'm reading..

As a bit of a crafter myself.. and keenly interested in feedback about this particular crafting system (for my own reasons).. I'm reasonably content with gathering speed.. and I have no issue with the slow speed of low leverls. That being said.. the swift gathering skills could be a good means of tweaking the gathering speed up to the 25%-50% faster suggested. It would give greater value to the swift gathering skills and incentive to invest in them.

I would put the skill number of discoverables below 20-30 personally. For a couple of reasons I've talked about before. I dislike discoverability in general because it can get pretty absurd. Such as wanting to figure out how to build a bench and discovering hos to make a cabinet instead. Just wouldn't happen. But also discoverability forces all such recipes to be unique in order for the system to figure out what you're making. If you choose a recipe from a book or list.. the system knows exactly what you intend to build regardless of how many recipes use the same components.

Discoverability on the hand is good for new crafters to get started with the basic recipes.. hopefully they make sense. If too much is discoverable though you get crazy recipes like we have now.. where it takes several trees just to make 1 pole.

Same as #1.. I would use skill as the basis for speed improvements.

Maybe a slight disagreement on weight at low levels. I would consider mining and forestry helping to train Str. Str in general is not hard to train in other ways. Otherwise mostly in agreement. Each stage of crafting should reduce the weight of the product.

 

I fully understand and respect your position OP. But I want it harder and then even harder after that. Yes it is a game, but difficulty results in value which ultimately results in a meaningful experience. Everyone here had massive MMO experience, and we are all hoping to find that game that is not like the others.

Don't hate me as I am no more than sharing my lone opinion as the OP.

 

Great comments all, and I appreciate the lack of flames.

Bowen, I think you make good comments on my thoughts. I have trained the swift gathering and while it is faster it's still slow. I think your idea about making them more effective is a great way to combine the idea. This way you still start slow, but logically get (much) faster as you use it. Since this game seems to almost be like teaching someone, it follows the theme.

I do have a question on one thing you wrote. I've read it a few times and I am lost as to what you mean. I apologize...perhaps a lack of coffee.

When I read this, I am confused - do you mean that today we have recipes that are not unique? I do not have any recipes that I am aware of that are identical to others that produce different results. I have seen that in games before but it was very rare.

Tahru - I understand your position too. I think that for a game looking to do wide release with a focus on player interaction that super hard is not the best idea, but I am not advocating making it super simple.

 

No right now they're all unique.. the way it's set up for discovery it's necessary. Since the recipe defines what you're making.. but.. without discovery they won't need to all be unique since you will tell the system what you're making basically by name rather than an ingredient list.

 

If you come from the perspective of an individual who just wants to craft his own stuff, I can see logic in this. However, I think the major problem they have is trying to balance the impact of resources on the economy. Unfortunately, even with current gathering rates, there are people out there farming 12 hours a day and selling that stuff for gold, COTOs, and real dollars. With our low population and the ease of resources we currently have, there's very little market for crafted goods as most people can make whatever they want. While some crafters just want to make stuff for themselves, I'd say there are a fair amount that would like to be able to make gold from their crafting efforts as well. In order to do that, there needs to be some form of gating.

My current personal goal is to craft and upgrade a full set of bronze chain armor. So don't think I don't sympathize with gathering rates as I spend weeks in the mines with my casual gameplay

Also, something to consider, I'm not sure what level you are, but as you level up, things do get more efficient in the sense that you harvest a bit faster and can carry more weight so there's less back and forth between storage and gathering.

 

A thought on resources.. storage capacity on resources will take a huge dive once containers are changed to have weight limits. That could change the whole dynamics of resource gathering as nobody will want to gather what they can't store. There will be an upper limit on what's practical.

 

I think you overestimate the desire of most players to play a survival game. If you make it harder and harder still, you will at least be able to have bragging rights among the two dozen players left that you toughed it out to the very end.

 

Anyone remember Vanguard?

 

I had all the crafters maxed in Vanguard - that took a while

 

Vanguard had in many people's opinion the absolute best crafting experience in an MMO. Vanguard isn't around anymore.
I'm not saying that opinion is wrong, I share it. However, I hope this game has a little more mass appeal and longevity.

 

I agree and I played VG till the day the server went dark

 

Oh please do not make crafting faster. It is already WAY to fast. Gathering is a waste time sink, but once you get to a table to actually craft, it is awful that it is just click a button and poof item. No time, no skill

 

Good feedback .

 

Good Feedback and Vanguard Saga of Heroes was a great Game with the best crafting System and some more Features i've ever seen.

Caravan System, ropes, great Dungeons, no Instances, atmosphere, dragons to fly with...

Diplo was sometimes anoying, but not Bad at all.