State of the single player experience?

OK,Ok,ok enough already... I admit it,
I'm a serial kidnapper!'
~Time Lord~

 

I think you should put that buddhist monk back in the temple.

 

Better than a cereal kidnapper (just wrong to steal my breakfast).

 

Hi Jamet! You will probably be disappointed when you try the game in single player mode. There are simply no mechanics in game to promote fun single player experience. You'll have fun for a couple of weeks, maybe, while developing your characters and grinding through mobs, doing some unimpressive quests, buying your first land deed and placing your first house, but after that, not sure, game has no lasting value as far as single player experience concerned. I don't want to start another flame war, as it seems Ther is one already ongoing, but SOTA needs a lot more "magic" to truly promote the game for single player experience. Read the thread about Ultima VII, it very clearly outlined what SOTA misses to be a great single player game. Maybe in 2-3 years after game ages and additional episodes are out, but right now, SOTA is pretty much a testing grounds, I personally like where it is, but I am in for difference reasons.

 

And again, time passes. Sorry for the late response, Andrew. And thanks for, well, basically, being very direct. You spell them out nicely: some of my fears. I haven't found the threads that you mention, but I'm almost afraid of what I will find in them. More arguments and upsetting conversations, very likely.

Chances are, that this is the last and final go Richard has at creating something like the Ultima singleplayer games, ever again. He might not be motivated to try again. And SOTA has not even really begun yet. Over three years have passed, and the first of 5 games is yet to be born.

And the more I've learned about the games current state, and direction, this more disheartened I feel. Some people still tell me that Yes, this is supposed to be that single player experience I am longing for. Your honesty however, tells a different story. While I haven't read the "What SOTA will be missing that U7 has" thread, I'm fairly sure I know about a good number of points addressed in it. As much as I want to believe that the 3D models are going to have character, quirks, charisma and detail, there is just no way they're going to be as amazing as the original character portraits have been in U7. It's one of my personally most wanted. Many old games have always given your own imagination something to play with. Hand drawn pictures do that for me. Maybe 3D models will be fine, but the current ones don't have character, they look like blank slates to me. Maybe many are *still* placeholders, but you'd think after 3 years, these would have seen some work. There are so many amazing, "starving" artists out there who would be more than capable, and affordable.

This is just a tiny speck of it all. Somehow, SOTA feels like it's getting too large. Way hyper. Out of proportion. And it not only has me wondering how the other 4 games are supposed to be finished in a timely manner, but they generally worry me.

A really meaningful story is the most important part. Something that makes me feel as involved again. I'll never forget how I kept chasing after Batlin in U7. Never much cared for grinding. Ultima wasn't grinding to me. And typically failed to provide me with tasks that felt overly mundane and boring, which is something I feel is coming, when it's all about the grinding. I do hope SOTA gets the "magic" that it needs, but looking at where we started, and where we are now ...3 years later, I have no reason to be an optimist. ;(

 

@Jamet this thread is ancient, yet somehow still incredibly relevant. I share your point of view. I am no longer optimistic that this game will ever provide a tenth of the entertainment that U7 provided. It's really only suited for an MMO crowd.

 

As time goes on, hope becomes ever more elusive.

It has been a year ago now since Lum made this post.

Here's a snippet:

At the time, I was heartened and impressed that a developer would be so frank about the issues, and take responsibility... and I said as much.

Unfortunately, a year later, it feels like we are in the same boat we were a year ago. In fact, we are in a LARGER boat, going the same direction - straight to run of the mill, grindy MMO-land.

Here's another bit:

Again... on the surface, lovely! Wonderful. Excellent communication. But... that promise. The July he is referring to was LAST July, 2016.

Now, I haven't played in quite a long time, having decided that I am going to wait until the game is complete before going back in, because the storyline and (what I hoped would be robust) companion mechanics are very important to me. But judging from posts in the forums, it doesn't really feel like any of the quest lines are polished. And the ones that I have played, well, they were pretty vanilla and lack-luster, without any real effect on the game world or characters within.

Certainly not Ultima 7 (or even Ultima 5, really) caliber.

Will it ever be what we hoped? What they promised?

I'm not sure. Fingers crossed

 

The single-player experience is still severly lacking and suffering from the MMO features of the game.
It simply feels like playing a MMO alone and not like playing a "real" single player RPG.
The tutorials are good SP experiences but as soon as we arrive in the persistent world the SP experience collapses. Gone are the dense atmosphere, the choices with consequences, the feeling of accomplishment, of being able to shape the world. Gone is the sense if danger, the immersion. Suddenly we are in a MMO world in which nothing can change, nothing can happen. A world in which housing, playing ball, synchronous dancing and PvP is more important than telling an exciting story full of twists, exciting quests, real choices with lasting consequences.
This stark break pulls out of the experience. It's like the game suddenly "forces" me from a SP game into a MMO yet still pretending to be a SP game, too. But just because we can be alone doesn't mean it is a "true" single player experience.
And this is very sad...

 

I really wish the PvP part would be true, alas it isn't. PvP scenes!= meaningful pvp.
Beside that I agree with the statement. I am still not able to grasp why we don't use phasing to change scenes for players.

 

Maybe it simply doesn't work having a "single player narrative" in a MMO world. At least what we have now is not a single player narrative, because in a single player narrative the world can change, NPCs can die, my choices have lasting consequences.
Maybe it would have been better to just provide an online sandbox for the MMO part and have the whole story take place offline in a true SP experience.

 

It's working pretty good in eso.
And it still works ok in swtor.

 

You are right. Those games show that it can work.

 

"Update of the Avatar" #214 was in my email inbox a few days ago. I will admit that I have not read the whole thing. I text searched the content for the word "single", as I do with all the others, and typically, I come up empty. Of course I do read the bullet points. This time I'll make an exception and just read all of this. Let's take a quick glance at the ones from #214, for just a little while. And I will try to explain why I feel so lost in all these updates.

Also, this is both meant to be a bit of a joke, and a little venting of frustration. Please bear with me for just a short while, and always know that I love Ultima, that I hope the best for SOTA, and that I don't think MMO style play or players are in anyway less deserving of their part of the fun.

• City Kobolds and Kobold Chests

Oh, it's a new race in the world? I'll be happy to explore and find them, meet them, try and make friends, perhaps. Very curious to learn what they're all like. But right in this email I already learn everything, including the name of their king and all. More importantly HOUSES! BUY HOUSES! KOBOLD HOUSES! Very cool in multiplayer! 20% off just because you're you and today is today.

• Patterns: Gear and Decoration Reshaping

I'm fairly sure there will be plenty of ugly looking weapons or armor in the game, but personally, I am not against using them if they are useful to me. It's fine if I can change their looks, but honestly, I don't think it would influence my playing the game by much. One of the cool things I've loved about previous Ultima games is that I didn't have much. I had to make do with what few good items I had. While it's nice to have all the good stuff (much) later in the game, I don't need to have my first world weapon coolness aesthetics problems solved, before I save the rest of the world. It's a fat ugly mace? Survival! I'll make best use of it. I don't need it to be an ivory dagger with a jewel and my runes on it. It's a bland, plain sword? Hey, it's *my* bland, plain sword. It is what it is. Just thinking I could make my weapons in old Ultima games look all fancy like that. Big nope for me. Some things are special because they aren't to everybody. Only to me.

• The Making of Upper Fortus
• The Making of Rhun Ruins
• The Making of K'rul

I typically skip these kinds of entries because I would like to start the story spoiler free.

• In the News: Richard Garriott: the man, the myth, the mischief

An article where Richard basically confirms again that we have an offline single player mode, but doesn't say anything about the general premise of the story.

• R38 Postmortem on Feb. 7th at 3pm CT

I have never understood what a postmortem is even supposed to be. Or why this is called that. I'd call it the Shroud of the Avatar Podcast. I stopped listening to these a long time ago. I'd be happy to listen to a 5 minute summary,
but as a podcast, these aren't really all that entertaining to me, and when I did actually listen, the conversations were typically all over the place, just not about story or single player, or any of the worries we've shared. While I greatly enjoy listening to podcasts, the sheer volume of information around Shroud of the Avatar is really scaring me off. And I'm tired of listening to 200 minutes worth of talking, trying to catch the 1 minute relevant to my interests ...

Oh wait, a 5 minute summary? There is another bullet point list for that. Okay. Let's see that one.

• Ornate Flamberge
• Ornate Flamberge Pattern Pack
• Small Longboat Water Decoration
• Gondola Water Decoration
• Ardoris Guard Armor
• 2017 Valentine Cards
• Silver Clockwork Armor
• Store Credit
• COTOs
• and more!

... why do I even bother. It's always about the finer details about aspects of the game I will be happy to see during the single player journey. But I don't need you guys to address every single piece of hardware, every item, every speck of dust individually. Yes, I appreciate the work, but I just can't stand this total vivisection of a game I want to love! Valentine cards? How about Pizza baking contests, next, and what is a COTO anyway? Please forgive my somewhat negative undertone, I don't mean to make anyone feel bad. It's just -- I really have to ask -- how many people are listening to all of this? I feel lonely, because I stand here, with just very few others, outnumbered a thousandfold, trying to make sense of what's happening to that game I wanted to love. The endless prattle on ... just look at this list of conversation topics! Decorations! Valentine cards! Credit of some kind! It's very difficult for me to explain how I feel.

• Boss Battle of the Avatar Screenshot Contest

The what now? Oh, you just play the multiplayer game, fight a boss, and make screenshots. In my humble opinion, this is about as anti climatic as it can get, spoiler wise. It's Ultima - the arcade game. How high can you score? Take a picture of yourself beating that boss you're supposed to be afraid of, in the story, later. And try not to include anything sexual, that's against the rules. -.- But since you're one of the people who don't care about spoilers, here's your chance and advantage to win free stuff.

• Origin PC Steam Key Bundle

Game's going to be published on Origin? Well, good. That's finally one speck of info that is so general that I can relate to it as well. Congrats.

• Alienware Steam Key Giveaway

Promotion is key for a lot of games. So yeah, by all means. But I am put off by that being reserved for Level +6 members. Does this mean you have to have played the unfinished game to a certain extent to be up for this? Does this mean I would be asked to cheapen the entire experience even further by launching it again in this state, just to be eligible for the win? Or have written a certain amount of forum posts? The latter would be alright I guess. But come one. This is like ... I don't know ... win a Ferrari by reading the first draft of the 3rd, 5th and 8th chapters of next Harry Potter book. Go ahead and ruin the story for yourself in the process. Collect colorful bookmarks we've prepared for you.

• R38 Offline Data Format Change - Character Preservation Notice

I guess it's necessary to inform people about this. Not that I'd care to have my character on there be preserved before the game is even out.

• Community Livestream - A Crafting Hub for Developers

Just how many more podcasts and livestreams do we need, really? It's who's watching all this? Reading all this? Yes, yes, I know, I'm just one of the few who doesn't, I suppose. Point taken.

• Doug's (IronMaiden) Chemo Relief Fund [Update: Telethon with Dev Crafted Gear Auction]

Good cause, not sure how it's related.

• New Stuff: Pristine Gothic Mansion Water Home and Water Decorations

It's always about new stuff with you. Stuff is everything.

• Upcoming Events

Events that will pretty much amount to a couple dozen more livestreams, events that will be covered in more podcasts, events that will be attended by a lot of people, I suppose.
Forgive me. It's like the world's gone crazy, but it's me who is crazy. I don't care for MMO games like that. The twist is that I want you to enjoy this, all of this. If only I would be allowed the same privilege. I'd like something tangible for my beloved single player. I'm repeating myself like a broken record, but I don't know what else to do at this point. Just hope that no one is going t be all too upset.

Love you people.

• Community Resources - Players Helping Players

That would be some hints, or a walk-through, or a crafting guide. Why not.

• Recommended Projects to Back

Also, nice and interesting.

This is it. Please do not take this all too seriously. Sometimes, I feel it is necessary to vent a little, but I always stick with people trying to play, communicate and enjoy the community. <3

 

+1. Thanks for expressing the same thoughts I had. Your post was far more polite and thoughtful than mine would have been.

 

1. an examination of a dead body to determine the cause of death.

I'll just get in front of that definition before someone else does so we can all have a chuckle about the unfortunate naming scheme, I'd like to trademark Portalarium naming, we need more Founder Founders and Royal Founder Royal Artisans, also we need more Town Sized Player Owned Towns, and refer to important events like in July as Pre-Wipe and Post-Wipe.

But I digress, Postmortem - Like many words, it's changed over time and postmortem is commonly accepted to mean "after the event" - they use it to talk about sports, concerts, elections, etc..

In this case "the event" was the release, so it is a Release Postmortem.



@Jamet Re: Single-player. I've playtested a fair number of games, inevitably the last thing to come in was the story (and even when it was more or less "in", most people weren't allowed to play the entire story until after launch). I'm basing this experience on the some of the MMOs that I participated in alpha and/or beta testing - Hellgate London/Mythos/Elder Scrolls Online/Diablo 3/WOW. I don't care to beta-test SP games because I don't want to spoil the story.

It's super frustrating I know when you want one thing more than the rest. Single Player AND Multi Player rely on the story being in the game. Story is being worked on and polished. As @Lum the Mad @Lord British @FireLotus and others continue to expand and work on the Story, that is working on Single Player.

The Making of Upper Fortus, Rhun Ruins, K'rul - these are also available in Single Player.

Artwork, Weapons, Consequences of Theft, Moving Platforms (that was in one of the recent updates, as was discussion of new trap triggers etc.) even the new Pattern Mechanic - it is all in the Single Player as well and can benefit the SP experience. Some people really care about their avatar's appearance and being able to collect designs and customize your weapons and armor offline will enhance the game experience for some.

There are some aspects of the game which are uniquely single-player such as companions, sleep to pass time (I think?), savegames, offline economy balancing such as crafted being a source of earned gold from NPCs, offline combat balancing, Spawn Rules etc.

But every week they work on the game, they are improving both the Multi-Player and the Single-Player experience. It's just tough to always comapre both because a lot of the Multi-Player experience is fleshed out by interactions with others and you can "play" whereas offline all you can really do is grind and experience a part of the SP experience in an incomplete game. Much of the main story arc is absent as are I would say the fleshing out the world interesting quests, traps and puzzles.

You see no benefit to yourself in player events, livestreams, etc. And you don't want to read about the story evolving (which IS tangible for your single player).

----

I think if all I wanted was a single-player game or single-player experience, I would back the game of my choice, park it in the back of my mind somewhere, and come play it some day.

Actually, that is exactly what I am doing with Underworld & The Bard's Tale. I backed the single-player games and otherwise have completely disconnected from those projects. I mean I check in occasionally, but really I'm just awaiting their completion date. For those games I'm right with you - I don't care about the podcasts, livestreams, artwork updates, and encouragements to buy digital items in those games (which is something that crowdfunded games rely on of course, funding to grow the content beyond the absolute minimum barebones version they can get out based on kickstarter funds) and I CERTAINLY don't want spoilers. I don't read spoilers in the newsletters either, I look a little bit at the pictures but if it goes into the Lore my brain goes LA LA LA. I don't want to read it.

I absolutely think that it is important for Portalarium to produce an offline version that works for players interested in playing through the single-player story/campaign with the companions. And I believe the scripting/gameplay/writing will get to the point it's an enjoyable experience (I'll probably want to do a passthrough offline for the story and the experience provided by companions - but I also enjoy the online community-based activities).

It's just that I think a lot of the SP stuff comes with the story (not fleshed out yet) and of course the mechanics developed for the Multi-Player Online also apply to the Single-Plater Offline in many instances. I'm not knocking your concerns, but if you only want to read about the SP stuff that also does not contain any spoilers, and you don't want to read about community events, mechanics being introduced (like armor skins, moving platforms, new trap triggers, new skills, fleshing out and balancing the skill trees etc.) then you're not going to find much of interest in the weekly updates (intended to keep players engaged, notify them of upcoming events, and yes, promote specials that lead to funding the game).


Good feedback though from the perspective of a player who does not enjoy the current newsletter - I bet the summary could be improved on for the type of reader that you are - and perhaps they can highlight the mechanics more. Is there a specific thing you would want to read about in the updates (once you remove spoilers/events/livestreams/etc. that you don't want to read about).

Perhaps a look back @Berek @DarkStarr @dallas and any and all devs who work on the weekly would be smart. Like a look back at the last 12 months (Hey, March is coming isn't there some kind of big day for us in there? ) - what mechanics have come online that benefit Offline/Online? Where were we then, where are we now?

But in the newsletters - we all want what we want. For instance, I kind of like to know about the promotions, anything about to expire, and reminders about the post-mortems, and any Question and Answer topics that get posted.


If you have specific Single-Player questions, a good time to ask them is the Post-Mortem probably, all of those questions have been answered the past few releases by @DarkStarr - and I love reading through those.

PS> Sorry, I tend to be verbose.

 

And that is part of the problem.
I don't think that MMO mechanics work well with a single player game. The grinding mechanics, that we cannot have real, visible and lasting consequences, that the sieges don't affect the cities, NPCs cannot enter or leave scenes, we can't sleep to advance time... mechanics wise SotA screams MMORPG. But then we have the story and it wants to be a single-player narrative. But it doesn't feel like it. Because of the MMO mechanics. It feels like doing the quests in World of Warcraft. Nothing happens during the quests, they may tell a good story but ultimately no one cares because there are no consequences. Why should I help the princess in distress when I can never free her? Then it's just for the EXP and some items. The story itself doesn't matter anymore. In WoW most players don't read the quest description they just look at the reward and decide if it is worth it doing the quest or not. Most don't care if the princess is in need, the story is just some nice accessory. In a single-player game the story is essential. The game is about the story. The game mechanics support the story.
The overall story of SotA and the lore may be good but ultimately it will be buried beneath the MMO mechanics.

 

Thanks so much for the replies! =^_^=

It helps to know what postmortem means. Hi Lord Andernut! To be honest I don't think I understand all of what you just wrote -- like the bit where you say we need more founders and Artisans, more Town Sized Player Owned Towns -- that bit is all about the part of the game I'm not really going to play, though, so if you meant that to be a part of the postmortem definition, gladly I think my understanding sparked already when you mentioned "after the event" .

With the event being the release. But the release of what, I wonder. ^^'

Anyway, thanks for understanding my concerns! And yes, my hope is that this is, at least in some way, taken humorously, and as feedback for the entire process of how information is distributed to the backers and supporters. How it's spread out, and how it gets really monotonous for guys like me.

Yes, I really don't want to have the story spoiled, but I am interested in the creative parts of how the story is developed, and the mechanics that are shared across all play modes. How they're adapted for each mode. I'd like there to be a focus on that.

For instance, I'm a backer of Thimbleweed Park. There are short 15 minute podcasts, roughly every month, where the people involved talk about the development. Because it's a single player point and click adventure, the tricky part is to not give away too many details of the story. But still, entertain a little. Tease a little. Show off bits that aren't about the story, but still make the game. The interface, maybe a few select characters. The general premise of the story, just rough foreshadowing of what is to come. The people making Thimbleweed Park only have a single blog and that short podcast for all of that, and - that's plenty. And it's basically all I was really hoping for.

Like you, I typically back single player games and then completely disconnect, but there have been several interactive bits with Thimbleweed Park's development, like user created content (library books written by thousands of people, a phone book with voicemail calls where hundreds more backers recorded their own answering machine greetings that you can all listen to, in the game - using a phone booth/phone book), and such.

So while I typically just wait it out, some games just mean so much to me as well, or I get otherwise involved, that I keep coming back hoping for something. Was getting plenty of that with TP. But in all of the three or so years of having backed SOTA, I still don't know what it is about, at the very core.

You're the Avatar, you're in a new dimension, that MAY be related to Britannia, because it's called New Britannia", that is literally all I know, and it's just not enough. And while I'm not expecting to be treated to a entire tour through the story, and certainly don't want such a tour, I was hoping to find the authors of the story, writing blog posts or talking in a podcast about their process. Tease just a little. Talk about a few locales, rather than showing them off in a full blown making-off. That's why I avoid the making-offs. I realise they're part of the world the actual story is going to unfold, in, but these are for me to explore on my own, as I play. I don't mind a few of them detailed -- with words, not images, and not all of them, just a handful, all in all.

Which is why I stopped starting the pre-release versions because I realised I'm looking at stuff again and again and again that I want to truly see for the first time when the Avatar first opens his or her eyes in the real release of the game. The release-release .

So long story short, ... what I wouldn't give for just a brief little podcast or blog written by Richard and the co-authors. Where they just mull over their process, their progress, what they've been doing "this week", and what they might be doing "next week", for just a bit.

Instead, I am treated to such high volumes of podcast time and livestreams that I completely lost track off it all. I don't even know what's there anymore. It's too much, and so un-focused most of the time that I don't know what to even look for. There's a newsletter, a podcast, several live-streams, a twitch channel where people seem to play games at random, .... where do I go, what do I look for, knowing that 99% of the topics discussed in all of these don't concern me?

What I wouldn't give for a monthly, brief bit - just about the story. The single player. And nothing else.

It's not just me, a lot of us single-player/story driven players are worried. A lot of what we've seen so far, doesn't feel right. Many mechanics. For me, a big itch is that we have no NPC portraits at all. But there's so much more.

I can't think of specific single player questions. No that's a lie. I have a bunch, and maybe I'll ask them, but I'm not going to do that in a livestream. It's too long, and I might not be heard. Some people just don't have the time ;(, I'm sorry about that. If I start to absorb everything, I bore myself to death and risk learning things I don't want to. So I stopped entirely, and the forum is the only place left for me.

Thanks for cheering me up a lot though! Much love!

 

I understand your concerns, @Jamet but theres a bright light at the end of the tunnel (more on that later).

Right now its just an mmo. the game is mostly there though, i can totally see them balancing it around to work as true single player. however, the online world/single player play is broken and will never be fixed. this game is an mmo but the game should work quite well when disconnected completely from the online portion given there is some crafty balancing. i think it is totally doable and within reach before release. while the mmo is designed to never end, a single player adventure, even an long one generally caps at 200-400 hours, thinking games like skyrim, morrowind and even ffallout 4. this game has that potential. make crafting easier, resources much faster, xping better so you can realistically get to the high end of the content within the scope of a single player game (without weeks/months of grinding like in an mmo) and actually be able to solo stuff. this stuff is not possible in the online portion, and thus not possible in the single-player-online game.

offline single player should be pretty great once the story and world is complete. and mods should really flesh everything out.

thing is, they made the mmo first, and itll be the only enjoyable (relatively) version of this game until 'release' and the offline game is given some much needed dedicate attention.


i think a major mistake was made trying to work in a single player online portion to this. i understand low player number instances, and friends only and all, but true single player is not possible with an mmo economic balance and xp curves. it is virtually impossible to balance and is causing a ridiculous amount of issues right now. the devs response was to make the game much 'harder' and require a lot more time to grind for everything... xp/resources you name it. too much of the game is off limits right now for casual players. i'm talking like 75% is for people with World of Warcraft amount of time and dedication. a single player offline version should fix all of this, and if they fail game modding will fix up all the balancing.

either way, port created a great engine and sandbox which will be fixed into a great offline single player game either by Port before release, or modders after. the mmo is probably doomed to the hardcore and rich few buying, trading and reselling addon store decorations for top tier 1337 gear which requires days/weeks to craft

 

One of the reasons it works there is because of the more 'themepark' nature of those games where you have a much greater ability to control narrative and consequence. Another reason, though, particularly in SWTOR, is companion based story lines. Bioware has always been great at writing rich companion characters that make you invested in their well being and their story line. Companions have been important in some of the Ultimas. I know that Port has said 'no' to companions in the online play for balance reasons, but this mechanism for story telling could really help create an individualized narrative in multiplayer. If online companions were non-combat, but had the capacity to alter major story outcomes (or even die) that could create an individualized, impactful story experience without stepping on the stories of other players.