Decay revisited from a different perspective and an alternative

@Chris @Attenwood @Lord British
Regarding decay:

I think that most everyone would agree that our current system of decay is a very contentious subject, but since it effects most all of us to one degree or another - I'd like to to take a minute to show how it currently effects a large % of our population and purpose an alternative.

I am a member of a good sized guild, who get together most every single evening to enjoy this wondrous world of Shroud of the Avatar. In the grand scheme of things, I would consider us as a normal group by most any standard. We have some who are at Adv level 50ish and a few above 80... pretty normal.

On any given evening (we get together every evening), what we enjoy the most is adventuring out in the hinterlands to see how well we do against the mobs that are the most challenging for us, and a chance at one of the decent drops. We don't have anyone who is capable of soloing the big bosses, but that's a discussion for another time. What we like most is the CHALLENGE that the tougher bosses offer. We like to press the envelope and develop our group fighting as we grow stronger and stronger together.

Unfortunately, with the decay system as it stands, we are now seeing some (most) of our members who are starting to "bow out" of our nightly adventures simply because they do not wish to take a chance on dying before they make up for the past nights deaths. This is not conducive to either group adventuring or SotA's future, IMO. And I know I am not alone in this regard. Taking on the Phoenix or one of the top bosses means deaths are just going to happen, period....

With the 24hr decay timer, people just don't want to lose those hard earned pool points by dying the next evening, so we don't do it much anymore. Our people are both depressed and angry that our adventuring together as a group is grinding to a halt because of the way decay works currently.

We have all asked the same question over and over, and that is: Why does dying have to take points away from skills and skill building ?

I know that @Chris's reasoning is that people should not have an excess of high level skills and the current decay system is supposed to prevent that.
But does it - really ?
Does the decay system seriously punish the ones who it is supposed to hit the hardest ? You know, the guys with 100+ GM's. I think not.

Should skills decay because of a death ? That's the bigger question.

Here's an alternative.

Logic would have it that a skill should decay upon DISUSE. That's right, DISUSE.
Use it or eventually lose it.
Now that's a system that would indeed bring those with 80 to 150 GM's back inline with what's best for SotA.

So let's discuss here how skill DISUSE could be implemented.

I was talking to a couple of friends and suggested something on the order of: If you don't use any given skill within a 24hr period, let that skill begin to decay.
My friend thought that would be too short a time period, but would it ?
*** EDIT for those reading this OP for the first time and worry about disuse when crafting or on vacation or the overworld, etc...: Skill decay on DISUSE should ONLY accumulate when you are in a fighting mob zone, and at no other time. Not on the overworld, or in a town or on a RL vacation ***

We need to have a way to make the ability to be all things at all times virtually impossible to sustain. This would have the most effect on those who have managed (one way or another) to amass 80 to 150 GM's way more than the current decay system does, as they would have to spend their days actually USING all those GM's on a daily basis.

A death should not mean a skill should drop.
DISUSE of skills is what should make skills drop.

Ok, I'm almost finished.

Please enter this thread with posts that are constructive. Ideas that are constructive. Tell me what you think of skills decaying because they are NOT used, and how that would or would not work. What I know now, is that for a very large number of us backers, the current implementation of decay is punishing the very ones who should not be punished - people like my guild members who USED to love adventuring together, and who now are speaking of simply quitting because of the FUN together that it has removed.

Let's find an alternative together, please.......

Sincerely,
Robert Frost
Knight Commander - The Order of Drunken Elders.

 

Frost, I think that's a fantastic idea. The logic is undeniable, and I bet it would accomplish the same ends Chris and LB are after with our current system, but without discouraging group play against the tough "boss" type monsters.

 

Thats how I always thought decay was going to work way back in the day of kickstarter. Its totally silly for a game where you can be it ALL. It recks the economy as far as crafting goes and it recks it for social interaction with grouping and raiding where as special skills are need from different members for certain situations. you dont use a skill, it being producer or adventure for X amount of time, it decays.

 

I disagree with it. Say for example I have the skills I need to do the dragon. Then, I need to do some mining to get better gear. I don't end up using the skills I need to kill the dragon to mine, so they go down because I want to go mining? Lets look at pvp skills. I like to pvp, but its not something I do everyday, I hardly ever really pvp. So, my pvp skills should decay because I am not using them? Say I want to kill undead for a few days, death is useless vs undead. So my death skills should decay because I chose to fight something different?Say I am fighting the mages in the rise for a few days, so I am not casting physical defensive buffs. So my physical def buffs should decay because I want to do something different? How about people who only play on weekends? They are going to suffer huge losses because they can't play during the week? Say you need to take a vacation out of town and cant play for 2 weeks, you going to come back to huge losses in your skills? That idea sounds like something that will force a player to play everyday, and never go do anything different, just do the same thing over and over.

Now you feel this is a good way to go because people don't want to keep dying, but you want to continue to do things that kill you? How about take a little break from trying to kill things that kill you, go grind on some things for a while that give good exp that don't kill you, and kill those other things when you are stronger? This to me sounds like a much better idea then making skills decay from non use, and forcing players to play everyday, and be doing the same thing over and over.

 

FrostII, I agree with you here. The present system is based on the idea that we all play the same number of hours every day, we all do the same thing every day, we all get the same amount of exeperience every day, we all die the same number of times every day. In other words it is all based on constants. That is not the way an MMORPG should work. If I want to fight a major boss with my friends for a few nights, (eg. for getting mountable heads for a contest) I should not penalized because we played as a group, took on a challenge and died several times. Then because of my limited hours of play, I lost more EXP than I gained killing the Dragon even 7 or 8 times.

I should not because I assigned Experience to my skills and now do not have enough EXP to afford to die. have to turn my friends down for a hunting trip out of fear of dying and losing skill. I should be able to have fun with my friends or fight in any fashion I wish to, not to be subject to the Game forcing me into a certain routine

Point is the Decay System counts on a Constant Boring form of game play. The key word is Contant, for once one of those Constants Changes it seriously changes ones ability to play the game. In the end it will take the fun out of the game and create questions as to whether even logging on is worth the effort.

 

Very sound idea, and of course you have the problem Mac brings up BUT there are two issues.

Decay with a system like that needs to be more reflective of actual player time, so decay over the time fits like it is but the offset has to be directly related to time spent in game.

You can go kill a Dragon and or go mine or fight as a group.

The largest problem is no there is a Curve like there is in EVERY test how some things are evaluated and the part of the bell curve that is being used is the FAR right. The far right is the extreme and also the part that is trying to be brought back to the rest of the curve. BUT it will not work as is because that portion is so out of bounds that they actually need to be taken out of the formula.

That is the problem the number are so out of whack that they will never balance out. Trying to do so like is going now is going to kill "normal" players.

If you try and implement the same concept with production skills is literally going to kill the game.

A fix is needed and the idea presented is very sound and a step in the right direction.

BTW I can firmly say ITYS about this LLOONNNGG ago to not let it get so out of whack :-(

 

Formulating a response to Mac2, which I'll finish in a few.
In the meantime, would you mind sharing how many GM's you carry @Mac2 ?
The last I heard is was 150 or so.......

 

If you dying over and over trying something, maybe this is a sign your not ready to be fighting it yet. You don't like losing exp and skills from death, do you really think losing it from nothing is going to make you feel much better? Dam, didn't play this week, lost 3 skill levels. AWWW man, I just wanted to go mining for a few days, lost 3 skill levels.

 

Ok @Mac2 I see and understand that aspect you are saying. and I agree with it. It would not be good for the casual player, which I am one. my thoughts on all this is that we need to find a way for this not to be a solo game or single player game only.
@Lord British wanted to us have regional economies. The current system as far as crafting goes makes it where you dont have to go no where, just make the stuff your self or gather it yourself. nobody sells nothing, no need for vendors. I am not sure what the answer is but there has to be a better way to handle all this.

 

I have 142 gmes. I had 151, but decided to delevel my bludgeon down to 80 to spend that exp elswhere. And if something like this was implemented, I have the time to be able to just do many different things each day. Trust me, not going to hurt me nearly as badly as it will hurt casual players.

 

just trying to figure out a way where the GM jack of all trades kills the guys that just specialized in a few things and being needed.

 

As far as crafting goes, you need to specialize to have people who want your service. Shimizu is an amazing enchantress. Many people come to her to get her to craft things for them. Why, because she did not stop at 100, shes got her base enchanting at like 120 now. Scoffer is an awesome blacksmith, people come to him for blacksmithing, same reason, his skills are higher then 100. There are vendors with gear on them, but once you really know how the crafting system works, and you look at 99% of that gear, its garbage. It is the stuff people leveled their skills with, or stuff that did not come out the way they wanted it to. Why would I spend my coin on something that is not what I want. I have bought gear before, and only because it was what I wanted. I don't want hp or focus garbage on my gear, I want stats and skill bonuses. I just hardly ever see that.

 

Should just remove decay from the game. They'll have no trouble coming up with other ways to punish us for playing.

 

Say your goal is to kill the dragon. You do not need 142 gms to kill the dragon, there are a few ways to do it, but you are never going to use 142 skills all at once. I am not the person to really be using for an example for all players either. There is only like 50 players or so above 100, so using them as an example of the norm does not hold truth as the equation will end up wrong from bias. It was not like I didn't put in hard work and tons of time to be able to do what I do, and I understand not everyone can put in that kind of time. This is where working as a team and specializing will work to your advantage.

You want to be able to kill some bosses and stuff without suffering from many deaths doing so, you are going to need some key ingredients. Dam, brb, ill go over some stuff next post, gotta go out for 5-10 minutes.

 

See.. This points out why there should be a SKILL CAP SYSTEM!! While you have 142GM's and higher, there is nothing in game that even threatens you because of what you can do skill wise..

 

This is the biggest issue about the decay system IMO. It discourages having fun. A possible solution would be to have decay turned off for full groups... encouraging grouping and putting the fun back into adventuring.

I do not like the idea of skills decaying because of being idle though, for all the reasons discussed above.

 

idle in game not out of game. and the time on it is what important, If your deployed or on vacation/out of game the timer is not running

 

So by your example,if I do crafting and decorating for 2-3 days in a row,my skills not used should decay? This is as bad of an example as what we now have. Your suggestion will kill casual players/adventurers,which is what is happening now,that's why groups are getting smaller,dying is a incentive to not group. And your model isn't going to help casual players in the least bit.

 

Ok, first off, your going to need a tank. Someone who can take the hits safely. Then you will need a healer for that tank. Then you need some dps. Ill go over some builds for each.

Tank - heavy armor, preferably meteoric plate armor. This will give you high resist and avoid. They are going to need skills like def stance, shield of ice, glancing blow, fortify def and probably douse for things like the dragon, lich boss and phoenix. Might even want to use a shield if what the tank is fighting is well beyond his level, and add in deflect, maybe even bolster balance. So, and example of a tank deck might be something like, def stance, shield of ice, glancing blow, fortify def, deflect, douse, inner str and maybe coup de grace and 2 spots of dynamic for combos, or 2 spots of rapid fire for stacking and one spot with the rest of the attacks.

Healer - armor with focus bonus, preferably carapacian cloth for crits as well as focus. 2 wands will help if you need focus, then you can use passive stance to keep your focus high. Load up with as much healing as possible, with maybe a def buff or 2 just in case of heal agro. Try to keep healing to a minimum to prevent heal ago, if you spam it to fast before the tank has built up sufficient agro, the boss will turn on the healer.

Dps - gear depends on what the dps uses for damage. Most bosses are highly magic resistant, so your probably looking for some type of physical damage, so maybe hard or supple leather or bronze heavy armor. Now, dps is going to have to sit back for a bit and let the tank build up agro. If you start attacking right away, your going to pull the agro of the boss and then your going to have to deal with it, as well, your healer is going to have to be switching healing targets, putting more pressure on them. Best off to just let the tank smack the boss for 30 seconds or so before the dps begins attacking.

If you want me to go into more detail for the healing/dps decks, or have any questions, just ask.

 

You say this but you don't really know. I still die, I can still be killed in pvp. How do I know this? Because it has happened, and will happen again. You seem to think I am some kinda godly unstoppable force of nature, but I can assure you, this is not the case.