Why Ultima 7 was the high point of RPGs and not even SotA comes close

I'm glad you mentioned this. It made it clear that I have a very different way of playing games. For me, combat has always been like a mini-game I need to complete to enjoy the story and the world. I realize that runs counter to a great majority of gamers who prioritize it. But gamers really do have diverse interests. I enjoy seeing the creativity that has been poured into bring a new world to life... seeing what I can find over the next hill... being surprised by twists and turns in narrative... getting to know well-developed, imaginative characters. I know this does not exclude great combat and people can enjoy both, but for me that's not the priority.

All types of gamers could find their interests piqued by the KS for Shroud. As development has continued, priorities were determined and everyone realized it can't be all things to all people. I hope at least internally there is a clear focus on the type of gamer that is their core, so they can develop a solid base. My fear is that the marketing for the game at release will again promote it as all things for all people and then lead to another round of disappointment for those gamers who don't feel like it lived up to what was promised.

Unless the three path quests of the main story line get some huge improvements before the end of July when it is supposed to be "complete", I really don't see the quests satisfying those who prioritize them in games. Getting through the path of love just this week was clunky, buggy and confusing. It is supposed to be the most complete. And it only took a few hours. (I already have a medium-level character to get through the combat.) It would have been even shorter without the bugs, trying to trigger things with the right keywords, and trying to put together what was actually happening since the keyword responses can come out of order. Less than 2 months until story complete. Everyone can draw their own conclusions about that.

So because of these things, I've actually shifted the way I game to see Shroud through to release. I don't enjoy MMO's that much, but I've given it a try. However, with all the games out there, I doubt hardly any gamers will switch their preferred play style just to play Shroud. The benefit for me is seeing a game in development through the whole process. It's been a fun ride that way, and there are ways I've found fun in Shroud, but I don't think it will be according to my gaming preferences.

 

I said it before and I say it again: When release comes, SotA will be judged not as a sandbox MMORPG only, but also in all of the other aspects, too. Then the offline part should be rock solid or else the ratings will be very bad. You can't announce a - whatever it is called right now - "sandbox MMORPG with single player RPG" and hope that just offering an offline mode will satisfy those who are looking for a single-player RPG.

 

I'm sure everyone has a favorite game that we look back on and think nothing ever got better than this title. I always advise folks in real life that they can never enjoy the present and future by holding onto the past. And this holds true with Shroud of the Avatar.
People read the "spiritual successor to UO" and get varying ideas about what that means. In my honest opinion, I think that statement was one of the worst mistakes in the early days of this game to have ever been uttered. Not because of if it is true or not,if you read the totality of the forums how many people have used that statement and said Shroud isn't.
Of course,that statement can be a blanket vague opinion that can be used in a lot of ways. What it might have meant to @Lord British at the time and what everyone else thought it meant to them may not have even been on the same path. I always looked at it as Shroud was going to be designed "in the spirit of UO" and not constrained to any set formula or any game style,game interaction,nor game function. I felt that his idea was to create a game that would be different,yet in some aspects similar in some ways. This is only my OPINION,not a statement of fact.
I do wish everyone could live in the now,not comparing Shroud to previous Ultima games,or UO or ESO or all the other titles that get tossed around. To do so will mean those folks will never be happy or satisfied with Shroud as a finished/released product,even tho it will continue to progress each patch and release. I'm sure if someone is dating someone,they don't want to hear all the time how a previous person they dated had the most beautiful eyes or smile. Apples and oranges can't be compared,they stand on their own. So you really can't compare games,different designers,different teams,different platforms,different coding ,and sometime vastly different budgets. Even comparing Shroud to UO,look how long UO was in beta and how long it's been out. To compare the two is unfair at the very least.
I played all the Ultima's and finished each one. I loved them all in their own way. But Shroud isn't that,it's something Lord British and the team are working on that isn't "like" anything else before it,even if the term "spiritual successor" was used,this is a new thing. Maybe we should be comparing Shroud to what it was at the first release and where it is now. Do I like everything? No I don't,but I still think the game should stand on it's own merits,not what we remember from other games or titles that we are so fond of clutching like it is a puppy we don't want to let go of.
I am not directing this post at anyone or any group,just to all of us in general as a reminder.

 

Yet, we didn't start with those comparisons. They were made by the devs when the Kickstarter began. And when they said they want to develop a single-player RPG akin to Ultima 4-7 that can also be played online with the world interactivity of Ultima 7 and non-combat roles like in Ultima Online, then people expect that.

 

I'm not necessarily one of those people, because I am rather laid back with these things, but: I've played the bunch of them again and again. Got the t-shirts. Had to rent extra space.

In all seriousness, I am very happy, even grateful there are people like Lord Darkmoon and other players who actually remember U7 and other games like it. People who know what we're all talking about. This is likely the one and only chance we might ever see anything like another Ultima game. Please don't see the "counter opinion" in ours. We, the aging fans, we merely hope to see a game that can look U7 in the eye.

 

Does feel misleading at this point. I played Ultima II-IV. I think some honesty in the beginning from the devs would have gone a long way. They should never have mentioned those games.
If it would have been advertised as a crafting/shopping/social media type thing set in a medieval world with a cash shop, I would have passed on it without question. I'm sure many others would have to.
The only thing I see in this game that reminds me of the Ultima series are the graphics. They do look like what would have come after Ultima IX, like something created in the early 2000s.

It's just like Star Citizen. Had they just said it's a spiritual successor to Freelancer with the exact gameplay/flight model, I would have passed on it in a second never looking back.

 

Of this I have no doubt.

 

Well put! You both! Well placed indeed !'

 

U7 is an untouchable masterpiece. I would say the best of the single player Elder Scrolls is the only game that has come close. I hoped Shroud would live up to U7 for 4 years, but when I heard 100% of the Dev team were "not fans" of U7, I was like, um, wow, okay, your loss. Not a fan of the best game ever made, not a wise choice, but whatever. Ultima VII is untouchable, the biggest problem is, the SotA team doesn't know why, don't want to know why and don't care to know why. Sad but true.

 

Huh? When did they say that they don't like Ultima 7?

 

I agree with all the positive comments about Ultima 7. I can't put my finger on why, but for some reason, the old Ultima games never lost their momentum. I never tired of playing them and I was highly motivated to solve every mystery and complete every task. There was a great sense of satisfaction every day. One of the reasons I so enjoyed those games was that there was no challenge that I couldn't meet, so I never felt discouragement.

 

At least 2 team members basically said U7 wasn't their favorite, which always struck me, now of course everyone can have their favorites and maybe I took it wrong, upon re-reading here's one of those instances.

"Well, I'm the lead quest designer and I was originally attracted to Ultima Online because it was basically "multiplayer Ultima VII", so there you go. I've played through all the Ultimas to completion, in most cases several times - Ultima VII wasn't my favorite (Ultima V keeps that honor for me) but in terms of systems and interactivity it sets a bar we still strive to meet to this day. That's also the bar we try to meet in SotA. It's a demanding bar, and one we fall down a lot on (especially given how many systems simply aren't on line yet) but it's what we aspire to as a benchmark." - Lum
​

From this thread; https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...pc-quests-detailed-npc-schedules.37569/page-2

 

The second statement shows that the first statement was disingenuous, and streching what was actually said to support your position.

"Not my favorite" is not nearly the same as "Not a fan of"

Spin much?

 

This pretty much echos my sentiments concerning game play.

 

It was the virtues of the Gargoyles which then balanced the Human Virtues that inspired me the most within Ultima Prime's history, and when infinity was known as the Axiom of where all virtues first came, during the Age of Enlightenment.


~Time Lord~

 

Ultima 6 was a good game as well. Also, this had me thinking about U6...

Spoiler

This made me wonder if this was once a Gargoyle city from old Britannia and that the lava flow was once a large water river which is now filled with lava because of the collision of the two moons? If you go to the Oracle Colossus, you can see what looks like an aqua duct with water grates on each side suggesting that water once flowed there. Now there is only lava.

 

"In the spirit of"... Indeed! ~Time Lord~

 

I went out of my way to say something nice about a team member, yet only the negative is seen, nice. I can't prove it, but I just have a general feel that U7 isn't glorified by anyone except the fans, and because it's so glorified by the Ultima fans it gets asked about a lot as a benchmark by the fans in Q&A's, and the easy answer is to say yeah of course, but looking at the game I don't see U7, the yeah of course answers are one thing, but the game's current state is another, and it brings me back to remembering Garriott want SotA to be like the older Ultimas, never U7, but older, the top down mini-map Ultimas, which it clearly is more inspired by, U4 being the main one. U2,3,4,5,6, but not 7, as 7 did away with that top down mini map. 7 focused on NPC dialogue and awesome quests and the first Ultima to focus on real-time-combat. The 'yeah of course U7 is a benchmark' answer doesn't mean you're a U7 fan.

 

To me U7 first and foremost is a benchmark for NPC originality and storytelling as well as how each scene is presented. On that scale, very few other games came even close. Gothic 1 and 2 did, for example. While I just adore a lot of other aspects, I'm really sure that I am not blind for it's faults. It truly and absolutely is the benchmark that I use to see how other games are holding up. Not so much what they look like, anymore, of course. While I'm not putting it on an unreachable pedestal, I just really love this game, so much! U6 was fantastic as well, but U7 outdid even that. The Underworld games became a second home, to me.
These days I'm playing Balrum and it's quite lovely.