Instances + Minimap Travel = Backwards Compared to Open Virtual World

Here is a least details on the decision for Dual Scale maps:

http://youtu.be/XQ_4-rwb5yg

This thread should really be closed. The devs already have technology based on what they discussed during their Kickstarter. Even if the wanted to change some of those things, it would create problems since many backed this project expecting things to work as discussed.

Also the word Instances is inaccurate. "Scenes", or areas you enter from the Dual Scale map, have been referenced as being more like mini-shards. This technology is different so saying they are instances in not correct.

 

Agreed, they are really scenes, but the Devs have also used it in conversations interchangeably.

Dual scale maps will indeed be the tech they use, that is their vision. That's fine, as I believe in the benefits it brings and gives them the freedom to do tons of dynamic content on the fly. I'm not asking them to drop that, and I'm not asking them to create a custom scene for every hex on the map and connect those together.

Think of the request more about a series of interconnected scenes that take you from village to village. It's not true monoscale map design and isn't complete freedom of exploration -- this is no Oblivion or Skyrim, and that's fine. But for all intents and purposes, it can still give players the same feeling. If you want to fast travel, use the overland map to travel from Village A to Village B, and drop down to any dynamic POI / scene along the way if you want. However, if you want to go from Village A to Village B via a series of interconnected set of scenes, that will fulfill the same spirit of the OP. It's more of a scene connection map that connects static villages, towns, and cities or other static POIs. Scenes can be added, removed, or changed -- it's all dynamic as well.

And I don't think asking a thread to be closed is very productive. Just because you don't like a topic doesn't mean you should ask the moderators to close it. There isn't any flame war going on here, just a healthy discussion.

 

Its not going to happen, chris has said why multiple times its not going to happen, he has said it gives them freedom to add content as its developed, he has said it allows them to make the game on a reasonable budget because skyrim cost around 80 MILLION (see that little 2 million on the right hand side of the page, which of you is going to kick in the extra 78?) and he has said it allows them to make the game flexible for us by adding in tiles for custom events that people want.

just accept that some things are set and this is one of them, Umbrae is right

 

i like the tile map feel, it brings back a lot of tradition in RPG games, very much like Final Fantasy and previous Ultimas

 

I very much like the feel of old school dual scale maps as well. And you're right Chris has stated their design goals for a dual scale map, which I believe in. I'll start a separate thread on using dual scale maps along with interconnected scenes, since it seems everyone is latching on to a monoscale discussion, which I also agree that we shouldn't be doing. This isn't Oblivion or Skyrim, as I stated above.

 

My initial reaction to the dual scale map was negative. However after hearing the advantages of this system, I am looking forward to seeing how the developers can put them to use. Also, just about any change from the status quo mmo is a good thing at this point in my opinion.

 

The screens so far (and obviously the term 'hex') has put me in the mind of Civilisation V. Particualrly if there is a fog of war.

Also now I think about it we may even see monsters roaming on the maps as we have seen dragons and heard about caravans that move as well so the world map seems like it will have plenty of activity and as such opportunities for emergant exploration.

Particularly if the fog of war is always taking over as you move away so that you don;t see all changes happening such as the volcanoes and such we hit the strech goals for.

I think the main point of the discussion here is that both have pro's and cons. I agree with the point raised in favor of the monoscale map, but I think that just as much positive will come from the dual scale.

 

@smack

I didn't mean any offense. Its just an old thread that is about something that is really a done decision. But your right its not a PVP Gank discussion.

 

@Umbrae: No worries!

And I'll just leave this here...

Chris
April 10, 2013 - 9:42 pm
We've talked about it a bit but one of the things that came up today was that every city and village can be reached via catacombs. That means even when under siege, you can get into the cities under siege via catacombs!

Urganite
April 10, 2013 - 9:42 pm
You say that, and now I have to ask if the catacombs will have a dual-scale map or if it will be a dungeon crawl the whole way?

Chris
April 10, 2013 - 9:43 pm
@Urganite, dungeon crawl linked to dungeon crawl, linked to dungeon crawl. Stock up on torches

Can't wait to go exploring!

 

I think dual view will be fine.

I played Mount & Blade which also has dual view, and I never wished that it was an open world. It didn't hurt the game's fun.

 

I think it's really hard to judge a Game desicion like this before you put yor hands on it.

But, i have to admit that I'm not at all a fan of this dual scale map that's already confirmed. I think for me this is the Game breaker. Maybe I'm authistic or something, but as a Kid I only played with Model Cars that where of the same scale to make it feel right. And that's exactly my Problem, no matter how well it's done, a dual scale Map never feels right. And it feels dated, not cause it was in the older Games, simply cause the reason to do that is limited programming work on the engine, every time you see the dual scale map it tells you "we didn't have the resources to programm an open World". Very disappointing in 2013 or even 2014.

The Game may become great considering the Game mechanics but in a RP Game Feel is a huge point for me, Immersion, being sucked into a World. Making your Avatar feel "real", and I have never had a Map in real life that I travel on to just switch to the "Gas Station Instance" if I need some Gas.
We are not talking Civ here, were the focus is strongly on tactics and Immersion doesn't count to much.

Look at the arguments in this thread, many talk about "why include so many scenery if you only go there once". This makes no sense to me at all, cause what I am still looking for is a (MMO)RPG that creates a World, and the feeling of a living world is transported mostly by the feeling that there is no limitation at all and that the borders are pushed as far as technical possible at the given time. I mean, come on, it's not that we haven't seen working open Worlds in MMORPGS without instancing, so it does work. We already had text RPGs, good at their time, we had dual scale, also good AT THEIR TIME...now it's time for open world, everything else is backwards.

It's a huge difference from discovering something while just walking in the Wilderness to discovering something after clicking in to a certain area on your Map. It's not the same at all, instancing makes it even worse, cause there's always the feeling that another guy in another instance stands right next to you, with glaring eyes, seing the same thing and you cannot talk to him, he is not there with you cause of some instancing routine. Buuuuuh, it's just weak!!!

In the End this is already confimed, so as already mentioned there's no need to point things out anymore, I just wished to express why I simply can not play an instanced dual scaled RPG.

Why do you think Chris Roberts raised 4 times the money? Cause Space sims are more popular, a Genre considered "death", while RPGs had there second coming lately? No, it's cause he shares a Vision with us that makes us feel we're heading for the future not backwards to a time when dual scale maps where the only thing technically possible.

 

@Ocelot: You make some good points, but I also think it's completely unfair to call out the Devs for not making a modern triple A monoscale, hugely sprawling open game world. If you have $85M to spare, I'm sure they'd take it, because that's what it would take to build something like Oblivion or Skyrim.

I think with the lofty goals they've already set for themselves to build us the next Great RPG, a dual scale map design fits well within that purpose. Let's see what they can accomplish. I'm hoping they'll design it in such a way that it'll make us all happy, considering the overall game experience, not just one aspect of it.

But to quote your first line of your post:
"I think it?s really hard to judge a Game desicion like this before you put yor hands on it."

 

If anything the duel scale map is a somewhat unique feature and almost adds a real time strategy flavour to the game.

If the Dagger Coast is invaded by the grudge bearing Squid people of the Soggy Boot Sea I'd like to be able to get to the action without having to resort to planes, trains & automobiles.

I'm bored of running around vast open worlds with nothing in them except trash mobs. Level up and get a mount, then you can waste less time going from point A to B for the 700th time. Level up even further and you get rewarded for wasting all that time in the first place by not having to waste it again through the use of portals or spells.

With super powered characters hanging out in the end game, slowly racking up what they need to complete their 'armour of tin can tank spank', (pieces of which are randomly contained in some multi-tentacled Elder God's pants pocket) and the starter levels filled with people who'll either give up before they hit level 12 or people grinding alts, in current MMOs the 'mid-level' areas turn into abandoned wastelands.

Which is fine if they are abandoned wastelands but not so much if they're supposed to be thriving outposts in the wilderness.

 

Yes I feel open worlds are becoming overrated.
When I played SW:TOR, it was so boring to go from point A to point B. It felt tedious, and I dread that part of the game. People may have changed to want instant-gratification.

Back in the day, I used to have fun exploring Savage Empire. I kept wondering what I would find at the edge of Eodon. I found Segallion and the Wisp without looking up the Internet.

After gog.com gave away Savage Empire for free last year, I tried playing it again, and I could not explore like I used to. I did not even want to have my own house to decorate like I used to. I just wanted to do things ASAP.

As a gamer I have unfortunately changed to want instant gratification. Open worlds may be wasted on me. But dual-scale maps are ok and I still enjoy the game that has it called Mount & Blade. I think dual-view maps are a good compromise.

 

@Storagezilla @original: Yep, I know what you mean. While I still prefer and enjoy the vast open worlds like Oblivion and Skyrim, there are times where I just need to get from Point A to Point B quickly because I'm pressed for time. Sometimes I'll only have an hour to play and want to finish a quest for the night, so I'll just use the map to fast travel.

Or, if I'm in EQ, for example, and I'm pressed for time and need to meet up with a friend to do a quest with him before he logs out, I'll just use a portal spell. Otherwise in most cases, I will make the trek across zones. I like the random encounters with NPCs, MOBs, and other players along the way. Who knows what else you'll discover?

Glad to see that the entire catacombs will be just a series of interconnected scenes where you have no map to constantly jump in and out of. Kind of like just a bunch of EQ zones that mimic a sprawling open world. It will be interesting to see if they're going to give players an option to fast travel out of it if they're deep down inside of it and need to get out quickly.

 

"Glad to see that the entire catacombs will be just a series of interconnected scenes where you have no map to constantly jump in and out of. Kind of like just a bunch of EQ zones that mimic a sprawling open world. It will be interesting to see if they?re going to give players an option to fast travel out of it if they?re deep down inside of it and need to get out quickly."

Hope the catacombs is a place where no one can "fast travel out of it", the catacombs in Pagan were tough for that very reason.

 

I am not a fan of the unrealistic mini-map system either- it is a cost saving option only, and an abstraction from reality.

It also is an overused and unimaginative solution that could be solved more creatively.

If it were ME with input in game design, and I lacked the budget/resources to fully implement a full feeling world; rather than make an artificial feeling mini-jump map, I would prefer a more realistic paper map, and make a good excuse to use jump points rather than walking.

The thinking designers could include narrative explaining that the jump portals are magically enchanced to keep the incredibly dangerous monsters at bay- at a certain radius from the points. Players who venture out on foot are simply faced with an unsurmountable challenge a few hundred meters outside the protection of the portals/cities....they are forced to fight things no player can overcome. they die or run back to safety. The further they venture...the worse they face.

So, suddenly there is the appearance of an entire world outside the narrow safety of civilization that is simply too dangerous for humanity to survive, and you physically can engage it to prove the fact- losing the artificial, clumsy, 1990s era mini-map artifact, which has always been rather hincky feeing.

This gives your game design the excuse of using portals to avoid a larger environment a logical reason for being that remains an "in game" flavor. You just have to work outside the box a bit, and not fall back on the worn and illogical contrivances of the past to arrive at an idea that helps the in-game logic match your budget limitations.

This idea enhances the realism, makes the dangers seem all the more real, gives more purpose to the travel portals, and makes the game design more unique, compared to other games of the past- at least, I think so.

 

I spent the weekend brainstorming ways to make dual scale NOT suck!

SotA: Dual-Scale Map Reimagined.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFwjendP2IU

 

@Dom John

Great ideas in your video.

 

Hey Dom John, i commented on your video but I'll explain a bit more here where I have more space:

It looks like a change of art style and perspective. Which is fine and might be cool to have (maybe even an option to shift between the 2) To me it's irrelevant, but I play D&D and other games that I use a lot of my imagination I believe if you don't feel immersed, it is a lack of using your imagination. I view the map as you are walking along animal/monster/traveler trails or roads for faster travel, only when you enter a hex do you take off from that path and see what is over the hill, in the woods, etc.

What I really think you missed the point on is the fog of war is going to be Really FUN! They can hide things in it, they can make it come back to areas you visited to hide new things that came up after you last visited. They can hide enemies. There can be new towns, new construction, a new mountain erupting up with a cave system to explore, that wont be o your map

Generally Fog of War is used in RTS's to hide enemy actions. I think they'll use this system to really make us think and figure out what is happening. Richard mentioned coordinated attacks on towns that we need to figure out, the fog of war will really help hide these enemy actions unless we explore it.

I'm sure the fog of war and overland map system will be much more fun in actual play than many people are giving it credit for. Give it a chance, once we hit Alpha we'll see what they have in store for us. Fun game play is a lot better than realism.. I would hate to play a game that is very real, that isn't much fun.

It sounds like a change from what every other RPG and MMORPG is doing, and many people fear change. A lot of people voiced concerns over everything they've said that is different from what they are used to. And that is what has me excited, they are forging new ground and I think we wont know what we like till we try it. Do we really want a game that matches the style the other 50 rpgs/mmo's out there are using?