How to truly eliminate "the grind"

This statement encapsulates the entire problem: There isn't enough game to avoid the grind.

The only thing that will remove the grind is the one thing us Single Player fans have been clamoring for since inception: more content.

When combat is content driven, it doesn't feel like a grind. When you are waiting for mobs to spawn so you can kill them again and again just to raise stats, it feels like a grind.

Pretty simple, really.

 

Dunno. I was playing it nonstop until the sequel came out and, even then, I made sure to do one full run of the original per year (this year, I did it during the Anniversary special event within Diablo3). I never felt like I was underpowered or had to specifically hunt down monsters to “power up” regardless of character build.

That said, it was only in multi-player that allowed players to play in Nightmare and Hell difficulty modes; so maybe the spike in difficulty made it harder to progress. I haven’t played the game in multi-player since 2000.

The point is: SotA’s situation is abysmal in comparison.

 

In his book "Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience", Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi discusses flow (a psychological state in which grind disappears) , and the factors that produce flow.

 

@Gix speaking of Diablo, ever notice how every single skill point felt like a triumph?

In SotA I hardly know it happens half the time because it's off to the side of the screen, and the sound/graphics could pertain to one of any number of skills going up, and I am more likely too busy fighting to notice anyway.

Even worse, we don't even see when we have unlocked the next skill unless we are paying very close attention to exactly that. This is usually a huge deal in games, "I unlocked the next skill, announce it on Twitter!" Here I might find out the next time I visit a skill trainer, IF I check every skill tree.

It seems like a wasted opportunity to give the player something to celebrate during the grind, thus making it less grindy.

 

didnt read the post after op - but funny - it's also not just repetetiveness (grind) imho, it's the way you want to play the content.
So, what content do we have?

Fighting content
Quest content
Crafting content
Socializing - playerdriven (Events, RP, Dance,-, Release-, whatever parties) content

something else i missed while do a quick answer?

Well at least these are the major things to do in SotA

You create a character, want him to grow, become stronger, become this or that type of character, fight, solve quests, riddles etc..., some additionally want to craft and socialize some more some less, some only against Environment, some also against other players.

all we need to do to progress is more or less repetetive - Bowen is right, as long as there are levels and progress there is repetetive things to do, some things have more variance, others less - for example you can fight diverse mobs, but salvaging or crafting is more or less allways the same. Sure the Endproducts varies, but the process is allways the same - hm - also right for fighting, but there you can and have to use different skills for different Mobs, if you choose to and don't limit yourself.

How is this done in SotA - well not that good than in other Games and - to me a important point - because of the limitless system it is build around to do it as long as you wish, if you want forever to Skill levels 500 (exxaggerated ofc)

To compare it to other Games like GW1 or - ok not that proper but... -Destiny 2 where your progress (grind) is also more or less endless, because of farming gear/ loot - what is mostly the purpose of it, but not the only one - it is to many people less fun.
I know some like the grind - i have to admit i allways say i dont grind or i hate grind - but what i want to say is - i dont like endless progression, i dont like to never feel the point where my character is more or less finished and i can start concentrating on other things, because i am totally competetive (PvE and PvP) can do all content if i want to.
Sure i still proogress, my char develops further in having social contacts, driving a playermade Story (RP), become better regarding playerskill, become wiser - oh no wait - smarter perhaps, having more knowledge of the games mechanics, environment, lore...

I just again recognized - the point where you start doing so need to be choosen by yourself - because limitless.
Some cannot stop - some will exhaust, some will enjoy it, some will find their personal point or border where they cannot or want not to progress further.

The thing what i'm disappointed about is that competetivness/ pvp/ pve groupplay heavily depends on a characters strenght and that the measures to get to the point where all content is available, where you can compete in PvP with everybody, where you can enjoy all PvE Content solo or as a group is so high, that most - no correction - a lot of players just wont get to that point and need to make compromises or make their grind more efficent and "grind" to the point where they believe this is no more affecting them.

most players i know say the hate leveling in RPG, there is the sentence, the games begins, when you reached endgame, then you go for fluff (or it should be about that, i know in reality it is often about gear spiral and endless item "grinding").
I cant say how long i can have fun playing Destiny 2 - sure not that long like SotA - but not because of the endless progression or limitless skillsystem, but because of the more for a virtual living created environemnt and RP Feauters what Destiny 2 totally lacks (but is also not about in the first place, it also isn't advertised as a RPG where it is about to play a characters role imho).

I often think online RPG's would greatly profit from mehanics like in Destiny 2 and people become competetive more quick, can all play together with more or less are all equal strong regarding game mechanics like gear, skills, levels etc... the significant difference between players is playerskill and not strenght that come from the game, the grind, the time, the money (not SotA, but...) or whatever - what i want to say playerskill comes in later, a lot later.

I dont like to have to grind to get on par with all the other players because that prevents people from playing together (PvE grouping, PvP).
What is left is pure sozializing, RP without any relation to gamemechanics or you are forced to play a lot if you dont want others to powerplay you (for example RP a conflict and then the one with gamechanically has 5 times your strength/ power can just powerplay you in RPvP.
Lame! and not because he is the better player, but because he is the one with more time, money (not SotA, just to be complete) or passion to grind things and all that.
If people are on par more or less - things become more interesting, because of more participants and players who can join your party without just beeing pulled, but gamemechanically worthless to the group, or where one could solo it all and the whole group thing is obsolet.

Or is it fun and challenginf to hunt in a group when you know each one of the group can solo it?

In most themeparks its even worse - there are levelrestrictions where players simple cannot play together because the lower levels are just not allowed to join or arent able to visit this or that area/dungeon.

Levels drive people apart - great diversities in power/ strength drive people apart - thats maybe not an issue if you have 5000 players running around and all levelranges have at least a couple of hundred players. Seriously do you expect that will ever happen in SotA?
I heavily doubt it and the whole concept is also to make this not neccessary (FMO, SPO, SPoffline).

SotA is a SP or a Coop Game imho where you need likeminded people around or you better play alone.
Competition up to today is only for those who like grinding very much and do it and try to get as high as possible with at least every single skill more or less.

Creating RP Characters out of the classless skillsystem means you limit and mess up yourself either you want to play the Master of Everything (exxagerated, but you know it's true more or less again).

Some think i dont want to put effort in a game and be equal strong and en par with players who "worked" very hard to get to that level.
No - ehr yes - but not because i'm envy or jealous, not because i dont grant them strenght, but because i want to play, cooperate, compete with the largest possible audience of players - so all players.
After i played around 20 hours of Destiny 2 i am able to comepte, cooperate or solo the whole content (except strictly group content like strikes or raids) with EVERYBODY!!!

i dont know why that is bad for a RPG or even for any game out there and why things need to be locked behind levels, time to grind and such.

To me it feels that this caters only to the fact, that these want to say: Look what i have accomplished, what you dont have accomplished an maybe never will accomplish. Cool gratulations - now you can play in your levelrange/ sphere/ society and i can do it in mine, but we cannot have fun together, neither have challenging PvE together nor have "fair" and interesting PvP.
a i know its never fair and some like it that it is never fair - but i don't and if we talk about gaming and having fun i can't see why things shouldnt be fair or do you want others to play chess without a dame or Poker with one have 3 extra cards or whatever.
Is this a neccessarity in a roleplaygame.
We sure need to diverse even in strenght/ power, but this should come from your abilitiies, capabilities, your personal skill, your personal knowledge of the game etc... and not that much from levels, gear, time, money (not in SotA again) or whatever.

Therefore i dont like leveling/ grinding/ working/ effort= reward etc...

i like playing games with others, interacting, roleplaying, competing, cooperating and i still do have a challenge then, need to put some effort in it, progress in playerskill, fluff, knowledge about the game...

just my 2 cents...

p.s. sure there will again some disagree, call me a troll, call me just jealous, env, a communist or whatever - but i dont care - it's my opinion i'm totally convinced of that it is not the badest one.
At least many games develop in this direction and bring people together - as an option - and dont drive them apart by levels!

 

Sigh. I disagree, you jealous, communist troll!

 

i want to like this 10 times!

 

Sounds like you're complaining about the grind.

 

i know this in another context - driving a motorcycle - when everything just flows you have the perfect time on your bike its like a sort of coherence of man and machiene

 

Also that you just dont jump on the thing and do the same route every single time to have fun, you have a million different routes you can go so it is FUN (I dont have a motorcycle, but Im a convertible man and nothing beats a long ride on a curvy back road or a strait away on a track at 145 MPH). If I had to do the same route every single day, I would sell the convertible.

Now compare that to sitting at a well pulling 280 water buckets for 30 minutes just sitting there chain pressing the "e" key (and not even allowed being able to macro pressing the e key)

 

@Vladamir Begemot Yep. Not to mention that misses and blocks had a kinetic energy with sound and one frame of animation.

SotA has sound and animation but you don’t FEEL it. I have to activate combat text that flies over my character’s head (something I wouldn’t do) in order to see if I dodged something so that I can effectively use Opportunity Strike.

The issue with making each level feel noticeably more powerful than the next is that it makes the game a little too arcade-y. I prefer it that way but I think the devs want something more subtle... so we get the 0.05% increase or whatever.

My theory is that people started to think this way with games like Final “it gets good after 20 hours” Fantasy and the first generation of themepark MMOs where patches/content were episodic and everybody wanted to experience it at the same time in fear of being left behind.

WoW further extended this philosophy by infusing “the grind” within its quests where you’d deliver 10 boar snouts by killing 50 of them. That was their attempt at varying the experience so players wouldn’t grind by killing the same things over and over again. By questing, you get more XP and kill different monsters in different locations.

In a way, even that sounds better than what we get in SotA with Deep Ravenswood. WoW’s method uninspired and unsophisticated but it’s something.

//

Here’s the weird part: I think a popular belief is “if you make enough content, you won’t feel the grind.” While this is true, with the way things are in SotA, it would require an INSANE amount of content to compensate.

It is SO grindy at its core that... okay, I’m going to do a weird analogy: do you know how large the game world of The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall is? Daggerfall is to map size as to what SotA needs to be in content for it to not feel like a grind.

 

hard to compare - i like my home course - but i totally know what you want to say and i also know about the water gathering thing as i do the same and i dont macro it. I have less crops to water and i only do it at the weekend if i do it anyway - collecting water everyday from 10-20 buckets at a time and maybe 2 times when at home, to have around 160 at the end of the week to have enough to water 40 crops.

 

hehe - i dont know the map size of daggerfall, but i think i got it

one thing:

grind to me is - repetetive killing on a single spot waiting for respawn
progress is done the best "by the way" you're playing and dont think about progress in the firt place, but to reach your goals and therefore we need that sort of content.
But please not the type of quest you mentioned from WoW like bring me 10 teeth and to get that kill 50 boars

i liked this one of you

 

one addition:

for example i would like to explore a dungeon what i actually cant, because i'm too weak.

To get to the point where i can expore it and have a challange i need to progress - i can grind like described above - go to DR, Grannus, Ulf... whatever scene what gives good XP and "grind" it or i can play and progress by the way until i'm strong enough.

because of not that much things to do or incentives other than to explore things and walk arund here an there, gather or whatever it takes a loooooong time to get strong enough.

but i'm not willing to grind that much, but i also did to a small degree, becaus "by the way" tooks way too long and is also boring after some time.
there need that said sandbox elements, things to do that let you progress by the way.

 

Its my party and I will grind if I want to!

But a few fun quests do help. SOTA has a good story. Its challenge though (somewhat by design) is that its quests are not heavily advertised. While that may be good, having to 'work' to find quests also might lend itself to players perceiving that they don't exist or just be too lazy to look for them. Interestingly, I see this in my own behavior. Whereas I leveled almost exclusively on quests in other games where they were nearly 'pushed' to players, I notice in SOTA that I tend to just go grind instead. Why? I think I grind in SOTA because its the 'the easy' thing to do. Its what the game, along with its use-based skill system, most offers up to me when I log in, and 'compels' me to do (this is a 'must see incremental skill gains to be successful' kinda game). Its not that SOTA doesnt have something to do other than grind. Its that SOTA needs something to more assertively 'rope' me into the quests. Past games hooked me on quests simply by more obviously offering them. Good story is a bonus.

 

I make my own fun while grinding to make it more interesting.
I've named all the nodes in the mines and greet them by name when I enter etc

 

It's not a complaint. But I do acknowledge that for a lot of people something missing. I think some of the comments here are pretty spot on.

There are two things I'm seeing here really. Lack of content.. and perhaps more specifically lack of variety that makes the 'grind' interesting. And perception. It's hard to think of a game as still being in alpha when we've had persistence for a long time now and I think that unless you both understand and acknowledge this, that it's much harder to forgive and tolerate the lack of content.

The question is then.. what content is coming before commercial launch that will make the grind.. less of a treadmill? (an excellent comparison imho) And what do we know (within reason) is still to come?

But my original point was that people keep calling for the 'grind' to be removed without really (seemingly) thinking about what that would really mean. Then I also think there is a little language barrier. ie when you say 'the grind' do you mean the act or the feeling? or both?

Now for me, things got more interesting with the addition of tier 3 craft components and some new clothing drops. I guess I'm easy.

One great hope perhaps is that SotA will always be adding more and more content. Though as pointed out, simply adding content won't necessarily do the trick. It needs to be the right content.

 

The problem with grinding in Sota is the following:

There is nothing but grinding.

The combat is very dull.

Thus, having to grind with a dull combat system is painful.

 

I have a question, how much xp do we get if we do all the quests in this game? Maybe the major point to look at? If someone could reach adventure level 60-70-80 (i dont know what number to put on this one) by quest exp reward and mob xp, then this grinding problem would disappear, I am not quite sure it is the case right now, or if it does, it should be advertised much more. Has anybody tried to stick to the paths of love courage and truth, doing only the quests without grinding and checking where you reach if you did not grind? Is it even possible?

 

now just to add one thing on grinding, incentive should be brought to avoid grinding the same thing during hours, it is definitely funnier even if it is now less efficient. When I grind I start with 1 or 2 sieges, for xp or wood, do not touch the cabalists though, then move to the kobold camp hoping for some cloth sets or bundles, clean once or twice the camp, then move to grannus colossus. When i have time, i usually walk on the novia map and kill the trols in the pass near ardoris to get few gems and ribs for the bone armor i am preparing. I started to do that when they nerfed the kobold camp where i burnt myself, and i definitely thanks the devs for that ...And i could definitely imagine doing that through quest not repeatable more than 2 times, with an xp bonus, (go to the kobold camp to kill the kobold warrior, or kill 50 kobolds in teh camps...)