Thoughts and observations on PvE Fire Elementals and Xavra, the Fire Pillar

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Anpu, Jan 11, 2022.

  1. Anpu

    Anpu Bug Hunter

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    For clarification purposes, I'm discussing the PvE 362 Hit Point Fire Elementals that can be found in the Verdantis Mines and Xavra, the Fire Pillar that can be found in Nightshade Pass.

    I've never really understood why the Fire Elemental and Xavra are set up as creatures that seem to do physical attacks. While fighting them, they do an animation that shows them throwing a ball of fire at the player. Off hand, you probably think this would be an actual fire type attack, but in testing with Death Shield, they appear to be physical attacks.

    For testing purposes, while a Fire Elemental was attacking me, I turned my back to them, and then started logging the damage I was taking. I wanted to make sure I was not getting healed. I then casted a 5 stack Death Shield, and then started noticing I was getting healed. I then did the same with Xavra and observed the same results (getting healed when you have Death Shield active). My understanding (and testing other creatures) is Death Shield will ONLY heal you if you receive a physical attack. So I can only conclude that the Fire Elemental and Xavra does an attack animation that looks like a fire attack but is in actuality, an attack animation of a Fiery Ball of Physical Damage....

    I then went to Rumor Peaks, and slaughtered all the Fauns, and Satyrs in there until I found a lone Satyr Mage. I then did the same test, turned my back to the Satyr Mage, and made sure I was not seeing any healing. I then casted a 5 stack Death Shield. Interestingly, I could not observe any healing at all. Which then leads me to conclude the Satyr Mage is doing an actual fire attack (they do also cast a Searing Ray attack at you as well).

    I would fully expect Fire Elementals and Xavra to do actual fire damage. Am I testing this correctly?

    In discord we have discussed this from time to time, but don't know if this is a bug, intended, or....?
     
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  2. Lazlo

    Lazlo Avatar

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    It's been quite a while since I've fought Xavara, but the last time I was there, she actually had 1 physical attack and 1 fire based attack.

    I think the reason that some magic creatures have physical attacks is so you can't cheese them with pets that are immune to their type of magic.
     
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  3. Tiina Onir

    Tiina Onir Avatar

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    IIRC this is because giving them proper fire damage was too negatable, and as summons was deemed to be too powerful.
     
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  4. Barugon

    Barugon Avatar

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    Death Shield used to block the amount of physical damage listed and then heal you that amount also. The blocking part was removed but maybe the heal part was working for all damage types? Try using a separate character to duel with and test various damage types.
     
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  5. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    No, the healing only works with Physical attacks, that has been tested before.

    Elementals do in fact do physical attacks, and you can notice it quite easily by making them fight shadow monsters, Obsidian Golems or elementals of the same type as them.
     
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  6. Anpu

    Anpu Bug Hunter

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    Yeah, that’s a good point.
     
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  7. Tiina Onir

    Tiina Onir Avatar

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    That might be going a bit far. I wish they'd have fixed the math rather then work around it.

    It's maddeningly unexpected.
     
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  8. Barugon

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    I guess this explains why high-tier elementals do so much damage to me even though my resistance is high.
     
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  9. devilronin

    devilronin Avatar

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    they physically cant do physical damage, their arms and legs are condensed fire, but if devs like to ignore that because a player built pure fire resist gear, then that is the way, but the correct method is diablo 2's element hard cap, which is equally bad, if youre wearing full fire resist that may or may not match xavara's damage, then a lower level elemental should do 0 to them, since at those higher tiers you can never have a max res to any element(correct me on the last part if im wrong, i stop at t5 since i dont wear MW/ench gear)
     
  10. Barugon

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    I don't believe that any amount of say fire resistance will ever reduce any fire damage to zero. The SotA math just doesn't work that way.
     
  11. Magnus Zarwaddim

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    Not intending to be contrarian, but it is a physical attack. If I lob a firey ball at you, you get burned and hurt by the object you are struck with; then there would be a DOT since you are still, presumably, on fire. The magic part, the fire, is just a consequence of being struck by a physical object. So, yes, that part maybe shouldn't be absorbed. I don't imagine they split damage, do they (part physical, part other)? But fire is something physical, isn't it? And for that matter so is wind - it's air being forced. This is sounding more and more complex. :)

    Things like Chaos (assuming nothing physical is summoned to hurl at you) and Death Magic, however, that would be straight up magic - except that Corpse Explosion should cause physical damage. Also, this would mean some Earth and Ice attacks would be physical. In the latter case, I summon a physical ice shard and throw it at you. Although magic created it, it is now a physical object you are hurt with.

    At least, I would presume this is the logic. If it turns out things that don't manifest anything physical are absorbed by a Death Shield, then you may be on to a bug.
     
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  12. Tiina Onir

    Tiina Onir Avatar

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    I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you: the Flammöl 19 used as the projectile from the Flammenwerfer 35 had almost no impact value, all of the damage was caused by burning.
     
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  13. Anpu

    Anpu Bug Hunter

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    Are you saying the attack (and specifically as I stated, the 362 Hit Point Fire Elementals that can be found in the Verdantis Mines) are a physical damage AND a Fire Magical damage attack?

    That I believe we could actually test.
     
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  14. Tiina Onir

    Tiina Onir Avatar

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    No, just that I think making it physical was the wrong way to deal with the problem.
     
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  15. Coswald_Dirthmire

    Coswald_Dirthmire Bug Hunter

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    As I understand it the damage is calculated using effective attunement (attacker's attunement minus target's warding) and if the effective attunement of the attack is very low it can indeed hit for zero damage. Think of a low/mid level fire mage attacking a red dragon, or a magic user attacking an Obsidian Golem with the -200 Attunement debuff. Both places you will see magic attacks consistently land for 0 damage.
     
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  16. Coswald_Dirthmire

    Coswald_Dirthmire Bug Hunter

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    At the same time, pump it through a modified water cutter and you could slice through plenty of things without ever setting it alight... not that I advise such a project. And, I mean, to go into further pedantry, lighting something on fire does cause it physical damage. Flamethrowers are not magical.

    As far as the game is concerned, yes, I agree that most all the magic attacks should cause (partial or total) magical damage. But the real-world analogies only take us so far in working out the logic of it. (The counter to the "flamethowers aren't magic" joke is that resistances from magic are also resisting the physical effects of these things. Asbestos isn't magic, for instance.) There also has to be focus on what makes sense in the context of the game (magic attacks should do at least a decent bit of magic damage) and what is practical to implement (if you just switched them over directly many things would become unbalanced).

    I think focusing on the game mechanics perspective is more productive. The truth is, almost any conclusion that's reached there can be supported with about equally reasonable (and silly) real-world analogies. It's just about finding the ones that are fun... it's a game, after all.
     
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  17. Tiina Onir

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    Way to be intentionally obtuse, it's clearly a wide spread of flame, not a jet of liquid fuel. Of course burning cases physical damage, being hit by the fuel doesn't cause impact damage (which is exactly what I said).

    No matter which perspective you look at, the result is the same, so your point is, well, pointless. There is no reasonable logic under which the fire magic is dealing only non-fire damage. It's also not even remotely fun.
     
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  18. Anpu

    Anpu Bug Hunter

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    I think the single most disappointing experience I had in the game, was when I was getting all my skills up as well as all the fire resistance, Douse, Shield of Ice etc... And sadly, making an entire set of Fire Warded equipment, Xavara, the Fire Pillar, A creature I assumed, made of pure magical fire...... was hitting me with..... physical damage. None of the skills against fire as well as the fire warded gear did anything. Also, I don't believe they even cast any fire related spells (fireball, fire arrow etc...).

    This could be for a reason, or it's bugged, it is incomplete design, or the damage math is wrong. I don't know.
     
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  19. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    If I had to guess, Tiina's recollection seems the most plausible- that it was a quick band-aid fix that was going to be revised later and never was. It fits with the general pattern of things here. There's probably an eight year old Jira for it.

    My guess is it will stay this way indefinitely, until we suddenly see a Tweet from Chris where he "discovers" and fixes something players have been saying for years.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2022
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  20. Violet Ronso

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    Like someone else mentioned, having caps in this game should be important. I agree that mobs should not be ignored entirely, that they should be threats, but I also believe working towards minimizing those threats, without nullifying them, should be possible. Have a cap on resistances, something like how the Physical resistance works (You can resist x points of damage but by no more than y% of the hit), and add ways to partially ignore resistances, 100% resistance ignore is way too high, but 50% could be good (and could be a great way to balance Puncture and Piercing shot maybe?). Give these tools to those mobs like Xavara and others, and all of a sudden you have a system where building against your opponent is actually worth it, but doesn't make the mob a simple dummy.

    I hope something like this gets considered in the future balancing passes.
     
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