To Be Or Not To Be: The Map

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Lord_Darkmoon, Apr 3, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,927
    Likes Received:
    8,453
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    I understand they don't want to have a bunch of UI cluttering the screen, BUT a minimap is a great option to have. If I can have my bag open all the time on the screen, I think having a minimap is a great addition to SotA.

    Since a minimap is optional nobody is forced to use it, but for those of us who would like it why not have it?

    If you have a optional minimap, then everybody is happy. If you don't have a minimap, then Portalarium runs the risk of having a criticism when reviews come out for this game, and it also leaves a gap in somebody's experience of the game by not being able to feel you are aware of your surroundings.

    It could be argued that a minimap helps someone feel immersed by being able to get a feel for their surroundings. Then you can turn off the compass all together and just use the minimap... Much easier in my opinion!
     
    Doppelganger likes this.
  2. Karrolanth

    Karrolanth Avatar

    Messages:
    486
    Likes Received:
    1,635
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    The True North

    The sort of (optional) map I'd like to see is one that fills in as you explore. I don't usually want to be given a map, when I go into a dungeon or new area, that shows me where everything is right away - I'd just like to be able to see where I've already been, so that I don't get frustrated walking in circles and can find my way back out again. :)

    Something else I suggested in another thread was the ability for our avatar to use chalk to mark dungeon walls with, to give an idea of where we've already been, if the devs are really dead set against giving us some sort of map.
     
  3. Margard

    Margard Avatar

    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    1,823
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The isthmus of Podo and Kodo
    This is not about "immersion"

    It's about the "experience" - the "feeling" I get

    Has anyone been just a tad scared while in a dungeon? Or the feeling that they were being "followed" ... or the fear of what was around the corner?

    Or when you ran for your life and you got lost?

    A minimap - directly impacts this - if provides "easy navigation"

    There are valid points to this BUT it takes A LOT from the gaming experience ...


    I would MUCH prefer to be able to have a "spell that marked the wall" or "ground" ... in order for me to navigate a dungeon
     
    Jivalax Azon likes this.
  4. Margard

    Margard Avatar

    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    1,823
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The isthmus of Podo and Kodo


    Great suggestion / chalk idea :)
     
    Jivalax Azon likes this.
  5. herradam

    herradam Avatar

    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    737
    Trophy Points:
    43

    Would the option to turn it off suffice?
     
    Jivalax Azon and Doppelganger like this.
  6. Margard

    Margard Avatar

    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    1,823
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The isthmus of Podo and Kodo

    Its hard for me - this is a game design question / not necessarily user choice

    To me - this is a creative dilemma - what do you want your user base to experience ... while modern games have done away with the "harder" elements of gaming

    There was a reason why we liked them - so like I said - having the option does ruin the experience ... primarily because it may affect how future map "constructs" are incorporated into the game

    -- also please keep in mind that I advocate "well design caves and dungeons" once that have visual cues to make them traversable

    I'm not looking for an insane maze - like some of the DD 1st person games
     
  7. herradam

    herradam Avatar

    Messages:
    392
    Likes Received:
    737
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I suppose my concern lies with the idea that one player's experience should be used to shoehorn other players into a specific experience that may not be desired. Arbitrary limitation can limit appeal and funds for future development.
     
    Jivalax Azon likes this.
  8. Lord_Darkmoon

    Lord_Darkmoon Avatar

    Messages:
    4,350
    Likes Received:
    14,678
    Trophy Points:
    153
    A minimap would make the game more accessible, which would be a good thing if they want to cater to a larger audience.

    I would like to have a minimap like in Wizardry 7. If you do not have the cartogaphers skill, you cannot draw a minimap and the more experienced you get as a cartographer (the more skillpoints you spend on the cartography skill) the more detailed and helpful the minimap becomes.
     
  9. Ceal Astra

    Ceal Astra Avatar

    Messages:
    38
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    North Texas
    To me a bare bones minimap (roads, rivers, coasts, basic blocky rooftops, the occasional fountain/statue landmark ) compensates for the senses I use to orient myself in the non-game world that do not translate to the game world- like smell, sound, the feel of the breeze and the sun's warmth. Without those things, I do get disoriented when there is an abundance of sameness of foliage or buildings.

    Cartography and "real" maps are quite a different beast, and I like the idea that it's a skill to both make and use them.
     
  10. Margard

    Margard Avatar

    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    1,823
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The isthmus of Podo and Kodo

    As others have mentioned - there could be core mechanics or in game concepts that allow of "maps of dungeons" .. but possibly they have to be bought and created by someone that explores the dungeon first

    It's also about - "how you incorporate accessibility" not so much about creating limitations
     
  11. rune_74

    rune_74 Avatar

    Messages:
    4,788
    Likes Received:
    8,335
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I tested a game that did a pretty cool minimap feature - eshalon series. The more skill points you had in mapping the better your minimap was...and it had fog of war until you explored an area. The most basic map showed only forests, hills, water etc...but as you gained skills more details would be evident on the map. Now imagine that in this game with the abilty to jot down an area and sell it to players....interesting to say the least.
     
  12. rune_74

    rune_74 Avatar

    Messages:
    4,788
    Likes Received:
    8,335
    Trophy Points:
    153
    I tested a game that did a pretty cool minimap feature - eshalon series. The more skill points you had in mapping the better your minimap was...and it had fog of war until you explored an area. The most basic map showed only forests, hills, water etc...but as you gained skills more details would be evident on the map. Now imagine that in this game with the abilty to jot down an area and sell it to players....interesting to say the least.
     
  13. DNA Cowboy

    DNA Cowboy Avatar

    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    134
    Trophy Points:
    18
    [​IMG]

    Yes, I know there are endless threads and posts covering the issue of the proposed map since it was first seen in R4 but the question on what to do about so many investor-fans so angry, uptight, upset, disillusioned, distraught and downright dejected about the fact that the developers are not responding to our worries and complaints suggests we need to take matters into our own hands and decide on how to deal with this most contentious of issues.

    I for one would like to see a company press release laying out what their long term plans are for this essential in world gaming element; do they truly believe it is nothing more than a 'cursory travel system' or what the Kickstarter campaign opening lines implied; that the map would be a tool which we could employ to travel new paths, that is was 3D interactive, a view that is the gaming world zoomed out, one that might allow the gamer to label, edit and generally interact with it.

    Once we have a press release or statement the investor can then decide exactly how much he wants to further invest, the elephant in the room unfortunately is that the vast amount of money has already been given to the company and only now are we faced what is for many a game-breaker.

    Will you stand with me and politely ask the company to make a statement to the investor/pledge and one to the gaming media exactly how they plan to proceed with the map design or will you continue to moan about it while your hopes for a next-gen Ultima game disappears in front of your eyes?

    For those few who are happy with this new map please also respond requesting a statement so we can finally lay this issue to rest.

    Thanks for your time

    Dna Cowboy
     
  14. Lord_Darkmoon

    Lord_Darkmoon Avatar

    Messages:
    4,350
    Likes Received:
    14,678
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Of course I am with you.
    We need to know what the long term plan for the map is and by long term I mean how they envision the map for the release of the game (Episode 1).
    Will it be just that - a cloth map where you move the flag around to get from hex to hex with some fancy paper animations on it?
    Will there be more functionality for the map (random encounters, hole up and camp, weather and day/night cycle, special events, etc.)?
    What about animals roaming around, gypsy wagons driving around, dragons flying by? And how will those elements fit with the scale of the map when one of the reasons to ditch the 3D map was, that the scale of animals, the Avatar, cities etc. did not fit?
    Any chance of going back to the 3D map?
    Any chance of doing something similar to what Age of Wonders 3 and Endless Legend do with having a detailed 3D world view and by zooming out it becomes a paper map?
    Why was the change from the 3D map to a paper/cloth map not communicated before exchanging it?
    How is it taken into consideration that according to two polls many people do not like the new style of the map?

    As the map is a very important element for some of us and is hotly debated right now, I think we deserve answers to those questions.
     
    Joviex likes this.
  15. Sirius Sternwarte

    Sirius Sternwarte Avatar

    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    1,168
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    Starr specifically said in the leadup to R5 that they only had time to make a few minor improvements to the map before the release but they will be working more on them in future.
     
  16. Lord_Darkmoon

    Lord_Darkmoon Avatar

    Messages:
    4,350
    Likes Received:
    14,678
    Trophy Points:
    153
    On what exactly are they working? What will the "final" map look like and what will we be able to do on it?
     
    Joviex likes this.
  17. Gubbles

    Gubbles Avatar

    Messages:
    856
    Likes Received:
    2,199
    Trophy Points:
    105
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Corvus Peak
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
    Albert Einstein
     
  18. nofare

    nofare Avatar

    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    27
    Trophy Points:
    3
    (sigh)
    ... as posted somewhere else, take a look here: http://ow.ly/wk3LD
    (starts at 46 minutes if direct link doesn't work)
    Chris Spears' and Richard Garriott's response to the map issue.
    Do I need to say that it's official since it's Garriott and Spears?
    Well, yes, it is.
     
  19. Sirius Sternwarte

    Sirius Sternwarte Avatar

    Messages:
    626
    Likes Received:
    1,168
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    I casually predict we will be able to do on it whatever the community consensus deems we should be able to do. I haven't seen or heard anything to suggest a flat no to any reasonable suggestion so far. During the recent videos they went to great pains to emphasise "current thinking". I don't have a lot of experience playing on a dual map as I joined this bandwagon circa U8 (*). I think your request seems reasonable enough - I don't recall whether the feature was considered a "stretch goal" or anything like that.
    The only reason I could imagine why it might not be workable is perhaps as the map environment is not inside a hex itself, perhaps there is only limited player interaction possible. I wonder whether the map environment itself can also be instanced for players to "enter" and "leave"
    Perhaps I'm not even close to the mark. In any case I have no opposition to your request.


    * edit: actually that's not entriely true.. Just don't tell Richard that the first RPG I played was Questron 2 on the Commodore 64! When I saw someone playing Ultima (4?) on an Apple II in highschool I said - get this - "wow that looks just like Questron 2"
     
  20. cs2501x

    cs2501x Avatar

    Messages:
    405
    Likes Received:
    376
    Trophy Points:
    43

    This is an excellent link.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.