Discussion in 'Release 21 Feedback' started by Poor game design, Sep 3, 2015.
I would say that your comments first provoked me, wouldn't you? You can think I'm wrong, or that I haven't communicated well. But to jump to the conclusion that I haven't even play tested, that's a bit unfair.
I've tried to rephrase my argument here:
I would have to agree with Chatele That is a really horrible idea I stopped making my own arrows quite a few releases ago (too much time taken to gather resources and high production costs) and have no plans to do so again Now you want archers to run around town and find player vendors who have a supply of arrows to sell at a lower price?! You are making a big assumption that players will GLADLY make them for themselves and to sell to other players that will buy them, resulting in greater supply and lower prices
It's not just about arrows.
I'd like NPC's to stop selling anything a player doesn't first sell to them. Reagents, everything.
You do realize that players may NOT ending up crafting every item that a player wants or needs? I suspect that most players will specialize in certain categories of items (i.e., swords, armor, reagents, clothing, etc.) What if I needed an item that no player is currently making (because they perceive there is little demand or profit in doing so)? Sometimes the NPC vendor would be the only one carrying the item
...and of course, prices could rise dramatically if a handful of players start hoarding items Gee, my guild needs a lot of reagents for our guild war, so we will buy out all (or most) of the reagents available in town. Too bad for the other players who DON'T have a NPC vendor to buy them from (by your logic)...
I totally realize that.
That's how supply and demand works. That would create a huge demand and it would allow people to make a larger profit and thus competition would occur. That's how it's supposed to work.
It doesn't have to be arrows that we test this out on...but we should find SOMETHING that we can use as an experiment now versus later.
And when crafters notice this need, it will be made and the first ones will make a large profit. It will all balance if there are enough Avatars to fill the world. Great thread your excellency!
Which would result in a totally broken, potentially lucrative exploitive for certain players.
That exploitation exists in the current system in spades.
This suggestion you brought forth would greatly favor those who knew areas that were missing, easy to game. If the NPC's set the market rate, it will not allow players to gauge the player base.
Rune, the entire economy is designed so that the NPC's set the market rate. But I'm trying to do is make it better than that. I'm trying to make it so the NPC's can have an unlimited supply and keep the market rate down artificially.
This is not true a vendor could sell a bundle of 20 arrows for 1 gp
They could sell anything for 1 gp. That's my point. They can't sell something for .5 gold pieces. You can have them sell 500,000 arrows for 1 gp, sure. But you can't have them sell 1 arrow for 1/500,000th of a gp.
NPCs should sell nothing. Players should make everything that needs to be consumed, be it arrows, mining coal, farming wax, making molds...everything. There are already some things offered as backer rewards and in the game store that sort of break this system (Artisan tools, housing, costumes, quest rewards, etc). Let the market decide what the prices should be. It will work out, and if arrows are hard to produce, fletchers will be greedy and keep them for personal use. If someone can find an efficient way to produce them in bulk, they will be affordable. Simple economics. There must be an origin point for all the goods though, and that part is not in, and might never be.
Welllll, Adam Smith's work is something I never studied and anything financial more than a savings account or plain credit confuses me, but what I'm hearing in this thread, other threads and in game are things that sadden me.
There seems to be a belief that if we leave the market up to players it will all work out. Before release there aren't enough players to simulate a true open market for one thing. For another some items are only available through vendors or are so rare I haven't seen them in the wild. Furthermore, the vendors selling player items mostly have prices out of this world. I even saw reference in one thread to something about a large team's authorized prices for goods. This is scary stuff to me. Some big league sets a price and maybe goes so far that anyone who tries to beat that gets gang-PVP'd or otherwise shutdown?
If no one decides to make something like arrows, it greatly affects those who choose something like archery for their combat unless they make their own. Maybe one solution is to increase the price of NPC sold items until it looks like a viable market is emerging and then the NPC and match that plus some percentage (10%? 20%?). I just know that we aren't at a point to try to move to a user economy, there aren't enough of us as of yet. Perhaps on a limited scale it could be tried to see what happens. Say, boost the NPC price of arrows to an even more ridiculous price, announce the experiment and see if the market fills the gap (I doubt we are at that point yet, though).
A lot of fine tuning of item "value" still needs to be done and we have a somewhat crippled money system with only gold pieces in single amounts available. A lot of what is in game from the vendors doesn't make much sense so far. Oh well, my 0.02GP.
This is a very good topic.
One thought is that there is no one right answer.
Why? Because the economy and player base may change over time.
For example, games like SWG were great for player driven crafting. Hands down. BUT that assumed that some player population was crafting sought after items. Once the population plummeted, finding some things was hard. Was the right answer to wait for rarity to lead some player somewhere to drop all other skills and train in a new crafting skill to start producing that rare item to address the economic need? Or was the right answer for the devs to recode some vendor somewhere to start offering limited quantities of that good?
That notion above reveals an underlying question: what is necessary to keep the game play heading in the intended (most healthy) direction? Which leads back to the original question, about what should vendors really sell.
Answer: Vendors should sell what is needed to keep the game functioning and alive. That may change over time. If players are crafting plenty of it, vendors should stop selling it, in a player-driven crafting economy styled world. It needs to work like the Fed. There to stimulate the economy when needed, but gets out of the way and just makes money off the economy when its not.
I'm having a hard time grasping the crafting economy... so far in all the releases I've been able to craft everything I've needed to use. the only problem I really had was actually the raw materials (with reagents being the worst). It just took time to gather stuff. But I've never bought a single crafted item from anyone. I'm not trying to criticize anything... I'm genuinely trying to understand how this crafting econ is going to work? (admission... I've played 0 mmo's...)
I agree with Andaluz above regarding the state of "Hey! I can't find ANY of these necessary items!" They can track (easily) what is available, and if the lack of an item becomes a bottleneck for the economy, a supply of that item should appear in various places (perhaps at various prices as well). The system is fed needed goods, there may be a chance for a wily trader to make some coin on arbitrage, and crafters and players get what they need. I just think seeing all the stuff on vendors was a little disheartening. I mean, magical reagents at 20 gold for every single one? Garlic is easy, black pearl is not. Black pearl should naturally cost more due to its rarity, but it would never sell above 20 gold since there is an unlimited supply at NPC shops.
Having played persistent multiplayer online games with both "player driven" and "NPC driven" economies, I'll take an NPC driven economy any day. At least I can buy common consumables without giving up an arm and a leg every time.
And of course for single player offline, the player crafting everything themselves, and/or buying it from NPC's is pretty much required.
Separate names with a comma.