Why PVP will never work in SOTA

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Schulz, Nov 7, 2020.

  1. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    This I agree. If it is a belt intended for "Melee without magic", then sure, the stats are good, a bit strong, but good. Now if the intention was to make it for a Tank, well this is just proof that Chris doesn't know how to play his game, because the Strength is so strong that almost any physical attacker will want to use this belt to make him stronger. PvP aside, this is probably the BIS for any melee build, even with a +Fizzle chance modifier!
     
  2. Coswald_Dirthmire

    Coswald_Dirthmire Bug Hunter

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    With the fizzle increase it'd be a harder sell for a lot of melees I think. Things like Soothing Rain, Elysian Illunimation, Ignite Weapon, and the all important Fireflies would be very difficult to cast, and not worth charging for risk of fizzle. It would completely negate the -50% Fizzle Chance bonus that comes with Earth and Life magics and combined the increased fizzle from berserker, which escalates on stacking, those heals and short buffs could also become very problematic.

    Some of this is mitigated in group play (others to cast Fireflies and so on) and for buffing you could tie a different belt (or no belt) to a buff deck, but a +50% fizzle modifier is a pretty hefty penalty. Remember that heavy armor users are now highly incentivized to go full heavy, thanks to the increase in the Heavy Armor Set Bonus. I still mix and match some leather with my chain for castability and speed reasons, but I pay a price for it.
     
  3. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    I agree and understand, but we need to consider what this belt actually gives

    The Strength bonus almost equals that of a Brittle Brawn ring, which reduces your health by 50%

    The damage avoidance is the equivalent to 3 or 4 plate armor pieces, and at Epic gives more damage avoidance than any amount of full plate

    The Aggro buff grants close to as much aggro than the troll belt whose only benefit is the aggro generation.

    So basically this belt gives the same bonuses as 2 artifacts and as much damage avoidance as a full set of plate armor, so yeah, I feel like the belt is an insane power lunge even with a +50% fizzle chance, and I can guarantee that I can do everything I can do right now, and instead of using my spells I can take the warding schools to negate most magic and become even tankier, while using the Elixir passive that buffs my potions strength, so I can still heal like crazy, and get a bunch of buffs.

    With that belt, I can aim for 450-500 Strength, 200 Dex, 50 or so avoidance (before buffs), 20+ dodge, with 4 different healing potions that keep me topped up, and insane amounts of magic resistance. That is why I find it so strong, it replaces 2 arties + gives enough avoidance that with Heavy Spec, Glancing Blow and Fortify Defenses, I can probably get a glancing blow on every couple of hits, while destroying mobs with insane power. Heck, equipe 2 wands or unequip the belt on my buff bar, and I could probably reach close to 550 strength as well, I can already crit for 3600, what are gonna be my crits with the belt now?

    So yeah, Its OP in my opinion, and just stupid with the current fizzle modifier.
     
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  4. Coswald_Dirthmire

    Coswald_Dirthmire Bug Hunter

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    That's the point of the belt (if the fizzle were properly signed), it gives a viable non-magic melee build. A more clever mechanism might have been dropping all attunement by a very large number, but in a way that didn't affect resistances.

    Remember that we already had a +50 Str belt in the Bacchanal Belt which only recently became bugged when they changed the effects of alcohol, and the potion of Shadow Form buffs for over 40 dodge with a very obtainable Elixir Receptive skill level. You can stack 9 Damage Avoid just with 3 food points now. This belt is better to be sure, but not as off the charts as it seems.

    I'm concerned with power creep, so I really sympathize with you there. I'm of a minority that thinks Spindelskog loot is already quite good since the Shadow Form potion is so powerful. As someone who has run around with the stats you're quoting, yes it's stronger than I think we should probably be, but no it's not wildly outside what we can already do (especially solo, the -80-100% crit reduction from a good single-stack fireflies is huge for melees). For someone with an active playstyle the bard skills and increased potion/buff durations represent a larger power increase, and there are more examples besides.

    My concern isn't so much that this single item (with corrected fizzle) is insanely powerful in and of itself, it's that it's only one of many recent power boosts that can stack together. I know we're mostly in agreement here, but I still appreciate having heard your perspective on it. It's good stuff to think about from different viewpoints.
     
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  5. Schulz

    Schulz Avatar

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    I see great potential for that belt, the muddy point I was trying to make is that one belt that would be great for a melee build doesn't exactly overcome the lack of str buffs compared to the plentiful buffs available for archer builds. And I don't want archery nerfed at all, I love to watch archers put down 4k crits.

    My original point was that melee builds can not compete in pvp. Too slow and apparently too fragile (at least I am) to take the hits an archer can lay down.
     
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  6. Coswald_Dirthmire

    Coswald_Dirthmire Bug Hunter

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    Your speed point is a good one, and it's worth pointing out that anyone using the belt would lose significant movespeed by not using a savage sash.
     
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  7. Joe Zhudarak

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    melee should have a critical damage redution added in passive skill for polearms, blades and bludgeon, this change don´t nerf archers in pve and can balance pvp...


    Archers still can firefly melees and reduce your critical resistance, but need to get closer to the melee opponent.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020
  8. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    What that is actually a nice Idea!!!

    I had thought about reducing PvP numbers by let's say 50% to start things off, so any healing/damage in a PvP situation would be weaker, allowing more chances to actually have a fight, and obviously that number could be tweaked!
     
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  9. Joe Zhudarak

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    Some newcomers in our guild are playing for 2 months as archers and com hit 2000+ damage in high level players with fullplate and heavy armor spec.. .im a mage but totally understant the melee users frustation! You cant blink, get cover and heal yourself like mages because you need to stay close to attack.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020
  10. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    Yep I had the same and I am a 142 adv level player as well. Archers over all are OP compared to most classes as they have no real weakness in pvp or pvp. The range gives them a huge advantage over all other classes and the higher level ones hit like dump trucks. even 1500hp they can cut down in 3 shots. Some of the archers I know can hit 3k in a charged shot with all the epic gear they have.

    I'm a death mage and I know in pvp that I am pretty strong to being with.

    100% Sara. Death is pretty good as is, the rest need an over haul that is for sure to bring them up to snuff.

    Ideally there needs to be some sort of mage spells to help reduce physical dmg enough to counter the monster hits. or do what I recommended a while back which is for pvp scale down the damage against other players so that the fights last a lot longer.
    that is what some games did which gave players the ability to react and even use pots. So other games introduce pvp armors that do the same which reduces damage taken from other players (think Rift mmo).

    either way until they find away to balance it out more for the other classes PVP will not be fun for most. heck even giving mages a frontal short duration absorb spell on instant cast to eat some damage would help. Dodge and other spells which have that really short few seconds does not seem to do as much as many wish it did. Even teleporting at the right time blink or chaotic step does not work cause once the arrows are in the air they home and still hit you even if you try to avoid them.

    I guess once they come out with the pvp queue system more things will shot for sure where there are issues :)
     
  11. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    While I understand all the PvP archer hate, if all this results in another massive archery nerf that mostly hurts PvE players, I'd probably be done.
     
  12. Violet Ronso

    Violet Ronso Avatar

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    And we all agree with you, I think no one wants any kind of nerf in any PvE activity right now, the only thing PvPers want is a chance against archers, I know thats what I want.
     
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  13. Spinok

    Spinok Avatar

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    Mages dont work too. Generally, the ONLY thing that can tank advanced archer nowadays is shield of air 0.2 (0.1 is far better if you opponent is VERY high level) what I mean in a word tank - it will give you few more seconds to try to torpid archer and kill it. But if you failed to make it in a few seconds you will get out of mana and die. The ONLY thing why we don't see 5k+ shots in PVP, is because it's impossible to make 5k HP :D Even more after Atos add new art (belt of dedicated) archer have not got any problems to torpid opponent. So the quest becomes even harder.
    Archery too out of the curve, up to 1k auto-attack, and up to 10k+ stacked glyphs(both PVE and PVP). Sorry but I can't believe that Atos don`t know about it and it is scary, seems we should forget the word "balance" and "PVP" in SOTA.
    Really all pvp against the archers nowadays it is VERY DUMP even for SOTA, you have a time window to torpid archer, if you use a crazy high shield of air, it is a few seconds, if you have not got shield of air, just run because even if you have 220 resistance 2k+ hp and a shield in your hands you will die in 2 seconds if you both from US - even faster.
    The main reason why we came here is the savage sonata stack with berserk. Even if you will remove stacking with berserk archery will still be OP.
    It should be and should be heavy nerfed in PVE, just a little example you will understand why - if totem has +250 magic resistance, almost no mage will kill it in a reasonable time by magic, when archer see +200 to physical resistance, he is crying from the absurd because when you crit up to 10k+, and seems it is not a limit, what it is 200 resistance. And you don't need to nerf archery, you should just nerf the damned bard tree which was most unbalanced thing in the game since the day it was introduced. Crit damage by savage sonata should not be stacked with any crit damage modifier in the game, except you use it on the tamed creature.
     
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  14. Cora Cuz'avich

    Cora Cuz'avich Avatar

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    Oh, well, you've totally convinced me that because of some edge case I should totally lose a year's worth of progress. Again.

    I've had a handful of crits barely over 1k. I'm not some super OP lvl 140 archer. If archers are a problem in PvP, fix them in PvP. And if they're "OP" in PvE because of bard skills, then as you say, maybe bard skills are the problem. TBH, it's kinda dumb that bard skills even work at all outside of groups.
     
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  15. Xee

    Xee Bug Hunter

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    I think the bard stuff can be fixed pretty easy make it like they said they were going to. have bard require an instrument in hand to keep the buff up. if instrument removed the buff drops. downside to that is than your limited to what a bard could be... you would see bard tamers pretty much as the only true option.

    As to PVE with the top archers hitting so hard with out bard, perhaps like you said don't nerf but bring up other classes to be able to do similar damage and instead up the level of the new creatures and areas to handle the heavy hitting. that way current content would feel the same but new content would get progressively harder to the point where groups like the new breach zone is where a single person can't do it without help.

    PVP though we need something to normalize all the combat so that fights are 2+ min with damage reduction.
     
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  16. Cora Cuz'avich

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    I think Chris has come out and said he doesn't like doing that, though I don't recall the reasoning. And admittedly, I can't really speak for the top end PvE archers, as I am not one. But so far, when Chris adjusts the "top end" it's never just the top end, it ends up affecting everyone all the way down.

    Anyway. I didn't intend to derail the conversation; just put in a defense against nerfing a class in general when it's mainly OP in PvP.
     
  17. Sara Dreygon

    Sara Dreygon Avatar

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    Therein lies the problem. Try to fix a long-standing problem and people will quit. So just ignore it and let others quit instead.
     
  18. Cora Cuz'avich

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    And maybe that's what needs to happen; Chris needs to decide that for the long term health of the game, everything needs to be re-done in a way that PvE and PvP can be balanced, and it is an acceptable loss if current casuals leave because they just saw another year of their game time get thrown out the window. I don't mean it as a rage-quit threat. But if it happens again, I have no reason to believe it will be the last time, or any reason to think my limited available time for gaming couldn't be better spent somewhere else.
     
  19. Sara Dreygon

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    My magic resistance can mitigate even the highest damages to 0. 0 fire damage from a level 140+ fire mage. Still magic resist items are added. Archers were crazy powerful... add in stacked berserker, air shield being able to hit crazy numbers, and bard favoring archers over every other build.

    Nothing going to get fixed if Chris doesn't know he keeps making issues worse as he doesn't even know they're issues in the first place.
     
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  20. Sara Dreygon

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    Cool... so long as the game gets balanced for everyone who stays. The "fix it and I'll leave" threat/ultimatum has gotten tiring after the amount of years I've played.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020