Thoughts on Resurrection

To be honest I’m not sure why I’m thinking about this now or how beneficial it is to go over this stuff at this stage but so long as I am thinking about it I may as well post my thoughts.

How death and resurrection is handled is fairly important and each option has its own ramifications. My thinking is mainly in regards to resurrection which can be broken down into 2 primary scenarios: New Body and Old Body. Those can be broken down further into 2 more: On The Spot and Long Distance.

Old Body - The PC keeps their old body.
At present old body scenarios run into trouble with the current thinking on body part trophies. What happens if a PvPer takes off your ear. Do you regenerate? Does resurrection include regeneration? It pretty much has to. The only other options are the parts are magically reattached which defeats the purpose of body part trophies or character models would have to be built with detachable parts (which isn’t going to happen).

OTS: In all scenarios, on the spot resurrection poses problems for the soloist in both PvP and PvE as what killed them in certainly still in the area and magical protection can be potentially exploited. Ie: Bypassing dangerous areas you’d normally have to fight through.

LD: Normally, the soloist would seek out a healer at the nearest town which then becomes long distance resurrection. The old body and its inventory is teleported to the healer.

New Body – A new body is generated for the PC and the old is left behind.
Where old body resurrection runs into problems with harvesting parts. New body has problems with looting. Outside of full loot scenarios. Why would the old body’s inventory be transported to the new body? That makes no sense.

Now with OTS resurrections you can always loot yourself but if that’s how it’s done then how long will the corpse remain in the long distance scenario? If the player never returns to the corpse then what happens to its inventory? If the idea is you’re not risking your entire inventory than it has to be teleported to the PC. Why go back at all?

Out of these scenarios what makes the most sense? I’m sure most people would prefer which ever one supports the features they want to see. Those into body parts and/or cannibalism (please let’s not have that debate here) or full would probably prefer New Body scenarios.

Generally speaking I think On the Spot resurrections would be limited to player to player resurrections while long distance resurrections could be player or NPC.

Firstly acknowledging that this is fantasy (that we get to resurrect at all) and magic. What seems most realistic to me is old body resurrections where the body is literally pulled together. That is, even if you took a trophy the resurrection process would reattach it rather than regenerate leaving bits behind.

Not saying just because I think body part trophies are gross and won’t improve the game (though I repeat that stance to be fair). The resurrection process could be more easily explained as repairing the entirety of the original body regardless of what state it’s in. That explanation covers all the bases pretty cleanly including why you still have your gear as its on the body at the time.

If you go with New Body then where the heck does the new body come from? Why do you still have anything from your inventory? Just how many copies of your body parts are there going to be? Messy. No good way to explain it other than “magic”. Which to me is usually a pretty lame excuse.

 

I have a thinking that leans toward New Britannia being a place where;
"I'm not sure it's a reality maybe it's a dream.... to.... it's a reality and I have to deal with that being a crazy new reality".
Where that leaves my body, is somewhere between reality and fiction.

I guess it comes down to some individual gaming world philosophy where New Britannia is just going to have to deal with coming up with a new fictional reality. That is to say that, "I believe we are more than likely going to have to accept some strange new physics where nothing makes too much good sense. Our New Britannia will be based around the idea of challenging our morality and self virtue, so, some things will have to be bent to accommodate the testing of our individual virtues.

If we look at our body's death as a total fiction, then why not be able to change your face or hair style or whatever you like about your new body when you get a new one, or have it the same if you are able to revive the one you had.

Just some thoughts on bodies and I do think there maybe something here in the subject we need to delve further into.
I'm much the same as Bowen in his views of body parts, but, I'm dealing with it
~Time Lord~

 

One of my favorite respawns of any games showed a splash screen of a generic humanoid adult in a semi-fetal position as if being reborn from the either. I mean we are discussing a totally unrealistic subject anyway. Even in most mythos where they have dragons and magic, death is permanent. I don't even think most people consider where the respawn body comes from. Just like the don't consider the programming issues like which variable to use for the character money holder. (you know all variables have maximum values, and most are not as high as you might think)

I know you have specifically mentioned body part trophy hunters, but I suspect more people will die from other means, like being eaten by a bear, or having brains bashed out by a skeleton (the bits go everywhere). So parts need to be regenerated in every scenario. (or do you plan to pull the "me" bits out of a bear?)

Or perhaps we are over thinking this particular issue. I am all for immersion and involvement in the game, but in the end, I know it is a game and no amount of technology at this time will create a perfect illusion it is not. So respawn in general requires a suspension of disbelief. Heck, even the NPCs and animals simply respawn. We don't overhunt bears, there are no cubs, they spring full grown into the world. Obviously everything in this reality respawns. I don't know how, but it does and that is the reality we have to accept.

 

Everything respawns is not going to be true within the actual fiction. You can think of it like that only because YOU the player knows its a game. The lack of bear cubs on your screen doesn't mean they don't exist within the world. I have personally never seen a bear cub in the wilderness in real life but that doesn't mean they're not there.

On the other hand we do witness our resurrection. It's right in our face every single time and personally.. I would pull the bits out of the bear (magically of course I mean it is a spell).

Here's am issue I have with regeneration. If parts are harvestable.. where does it stop? I've heard people talking about putting people's skin on their walls.. making their own throne of bones etc.. So you regenerate a new body out of.. what's left? What exactly IS left in some cases? Just what are you casting the resurrection on? Then afterwards you still have all those parts left over. What if you cast resurrection on multiple parts? (Obviously we won't be allowed to in game mechanics but within the world itself it should be possible right?). What if 2 people cast it on different parts at the same time? Do you get clones? Does the soul get divided? etc.

Ok it's a game. Not everyone thinks or cares about some of this stuff and other things can't be helped and we just have to accept it as there's no other way to do some things. BUT.. if you have a choice between something that is immersive and makes sense.. and something that is neither immersion or makes any sense. They both are meant to achieve the same goal. Why not go for the more immersive if you can?

I'm not asking what makes perfect sense in the real world. I'm asking what makes the MOST sense within the world in which it exists. It is in part about making New Britannia as believable as reasonably possible.

 

You die. You can be res'd for some period of time. You can tap to some respawn point at any time.

 

heh. Keeping it simple.

I've just been thinking of a better way to phrase how I look at things here. Some people I think view the world through the game. That is to say game mechanics define the world.

I am taking the completely opposite approach. If the you're trying to simulate a real place, you want that simulator to be as accurate and make as much sense as possible right? Assume New Britannia is a real world and the game is a simulator. Game mechanics should be defined by the world of New Britannia as much as reasonably possible.

Ok that said.. respawn points make no sense to me as is. At least I haven't heard any official statements suggesting its even possible. It's a very artificial mechanic. On the other hand if you're "respawning" (presumably a solo, long distance rez) that doesn't require you to travel to find a healer. Then you should appear at the nearest town with a healer under the assumption that your soul was drawn there and detected by the healer in question.

That does seem a bit off though. To me that raises the question of why? Do healers have a device or frequency undo rituals to detect and summon the souls of avatars? It seems a bit unlikely.

On the other hand.. IF the player has visited the healer prior then they would know where the healer is. So rather than simply saying the closest healer we could say the closest known healer. The assumption then becomes the character goes there on their own accord.

So in talking long distance resurrections I could be happy with traveling or the 'fast travel' respawn.

Problem with the fast travel respawn is looting and harvesting parts. If we're talking the Old Body scenario you could simply respawn right away and not give anyone time to loot/harvest you unless there's a timer involved somehow. Not really an issue in PvE. If you're forced to leg it then there's plenty of time for the loot/harvest.

It occurs to me that any long distance rez also has issues with the ransom system.

 

To me, it's just like the Matrix. (Like any computer game.) I'm projected into some other place. I can wake up and not be there. I control some things, but not all. SotA is a bit of you playing you, playing a version of you.

I'm OK with having less spawn points, but the dual map trivializes that anyway.

 

Given the possibility of entering an Elven body when we transport into New Britannia (through a lunar rift/moongate/whatever), it may be that as Avatars we have the unique ability to enter new bodies. I've suggested perhaps this is a lore explanation for why we can come back from death, but presumably the NPCs in the world can't as well.

If resurrection were possible in the setting on the whole for anyone in the world (NPCs included) then what weight would death have unless only the super wealthy could afford it? And if that was the case, what would the repercussions of that be? Wealthy fighting amongst their own heirs because it is hard to climb the ladder when your ancestors can come back from the dead and now wealth would have to be shared with your children? The poor resenting the rich when their loved ones die because they can't afford resurrection?

 

I've actually given both of those subjects a little bit of thought recently.

With the lunar rifts.. there's a couple scenarios that come to my mind. First, your appearance could be thought of as a reflection of your "true self". I know there's at least one person on the forum who would like that point of view. I couldn't call it a perfect explanation but it's one that could be make to work.

Another idea that is perhaps a little more obvious is that the magic involved allows you to manipulate your body/appearance when you step through. Since this is obviously what happens anyway. As it seems it's not your Earth body that steps through who's to say what happens as you're passing through the ether? Encounters with gypsies? The Great Earth Serpent? Something orchestrated by the Oracle or even Time Lord interference? *shrug*

Whether it's conscience or subconscious you end up with some control over how you come out. That covers appearance, gender and race.

How exactly that applies to resurrection scenarios I'm not entirely sure. Except that the avatar's body ages very, very slowly which could easily be a side effect of how the body was created.

Which brings me to the other point. Can NPCs be resurrected? The answer to which I think must be yes, absolutely. It is almost certainly the native mages in New Britannia who rediscovered magic and every spell within every school. If resurrection were not possible for them then who figured out a resurrection spell that works???

That of course leads us into the question of how widely is this used on "NPCs"? The native population. Consider the manner in which the majority of people die. Old age. Incurable disease. Ill health. For any one of these situations resurrection for the native population would be meaningless. You might give them a few more days to live but what killed them before would only kill them again.

Resurrection would only be truly meaningful in the even of unnatural death, particularly among the young and I would agree with the thinking that it's probably expensive. The poor generally would not be able to afford it though I imagine some healers would provide charity to an extent but they could only help so many and we can probably assume the reagents necessary are also rare and expensive.

Death in the wilderness for the natives may require retrieving the body and death through battles would simply be unrealistic to resurrect everyone. Could the 'NPC's' spirit travel to a healer for a resurrection? Maybe. Maybe not. It's a question of whether or not their spirit remains in the world long enough to do so or does it go straight to the Void? (And would they be able to prove they could afford it?). The Avatar's soul is magically transported into the world through the lunar rifts so it's not a stretch to say that same magic keeps their soul in the world making resurrections easier.

So I think simply by virtue of circumstances that resurrection for native New Britannians would be rare.

 

OK, this bring up an old Star Trek question;

When Captain Kirk beams back aboard, it really him, or a replica of him?
Or, in a more UO outlook, is it you, is it the same place you left, or is it a completely different place that looks all the same
~Time Lord~

 

An interesting question. Since you mentioned Star Trek, the original series, they did an episode where a replica of Kirk was created through a transporter malfunction and the debate of
who was the real Kirk.

 

Because we can't regenerate like you, Time Lord (Resurrection implies we are stuck with our original bodies )

 

While I've probably seen every episode of every Star Trek ever. I've never been a fan of ST technology. Not that the question is even remotely on-topic.

But touching only lightly on the notion of does the Avatar actually have a soul or not. RG has answered that many times in trying to explain "you are you" "your soul in the avatar's body". So the answer being.. yes the avatar is the same avatar and NOT a copy.

Or if you want to nit pick.. the soul is the same and that is what "you" are. The body itself does not define the soul and therefore the soul does not require the body to fit the definition of "you". All clear? Anyone's head not spinning yet?

ST tech kinda relies on people either ignoring the person's soul or the believe that there really is no such thing. A debate we won't be getting into here. As it is.. according to SotA lore the soul/spirit exists and so that's what we're going with.

 

~Time Lord~

 

I know what you mean Bowen, it's a strange set of circumstance when we die and magically resurrect. I tend to take the UO answer, where we just don't know whether or not it is real or fake or another reality that seems all the same.

The body part issue is so beyond me... Can we be looted for body parts etcetera...
I had a nerve taken out of me by a doctor once and I asked to get it back from him and he told me it was a part of his collection that was still under study... That really pissed me off!

Here in our world of New Britannia, I can only think of one solution that still doesn't fit and that's those body chambers from the movie Avatar... it just looks too tech for me to fit here, yet would be more believable... if we landed in spacecraft, but we don't...
How did we get here? I think we just wake up here don't we? or does some Time Lord kidnap us all and I forgot to send a ransom notes out
~Time Lord~

 

The UO was entirely alternate realities to begin with. Absolutely nothing that happened on any shard is Ultima canon. In fact, no one actually living in the "real world" was ever even aware those alternate realities ever existed. One could even question whether anyone was truly alive in those realities. Although using the Gem of Immortality was somewhat clever to set up the back story but at the same time it makes any meaningful philosophical debate.. moot. (yes I realize I'm being redundant there).

How you get to NB.. or more specifically how you ended up stepping through a moonga.. lunar rift is a story that's up to you to tell. I can imagine any number of backstories from just walking in because of curiosity.. falling in.. being forced or otherwise compelled. Up to you. Maybe a Time Lord called you.. "come hither ye and.. " whatever.

I am really NOT a fan of the "you are you" story element. I understand the intention and for the most part agree to a point that a character should have to live with the consequences of their actions.. but I don't buy that that character has to be "you the player" for that to happen. For those who would try to avoid the consequences.. I think the whole thing is lost on those people anyway.

As such I don't like the whole changing appearances and races etc. The Bowen that steps out of that lunar rift is the same one that stepped into it as far as I'm concerned. RG's explanation seems rather forced in order to suit the intention. Simply though, travel between worlds to Britannia has always been through the Void using some sort of magical gateway. Normally a moongate. Aka lunar rift. Exceptions to this rule were in Underworld II that used a large, faceted blackrock gem, and Serpent Isle which used the Wall of Lights which I suppose was like a massive, artificial moongate. Anyway..

Harvesting body parts would be more or less impossible unless you assume Old Body regeneration or New Body resurrection scenarios. I obviously dislike both of those for reasons stated earlier. Just too much weirdness.. too many questions. It might be interesting to sit back and watch RPers engage in philosophical debates on the subject but I'd much rather have the resurrection process identify all your body parts and bring them back together.

Which reminds me of an issue I was considering in that regard. Missing parts.. specifically eyes. Since eye patches would be a popular accessory. How would one explain a missing eye post resurrection.

I would take it as either 1: You arrived that way. Which doesn't make much since if you go with RG's scenario of your soul in an Avatar's body. 2: If a part was lost and decayed to the post where there was no DNA left (for example).. then resurrection wouldn't be able to locate that part to repair it. Thus.. why avatar's where eye patches. Not just a fashion statement! Also suitable for hand hooks and peg legs if we were to ever get those.

The player in these cases makes that assumption themselves that a part was missing long enough before dying as how the player perceived the passage of time in-game is different between players.

 

This is a very good point in many you make;

"I like the reassembly scenario"... it makes good sense to me and dose bring up the issue of whether your body is still to be had where you were last killed.

I think from death resurrection time should be the amount of time you are available for harvesting () This makes any tampering with the body much more viable and causes a greater motivation to get resurrected quickly after death. It's a game, it should be challenging, so we should make it challenging
Anyone else out there have any ideas on this?
It's a well deserved topic I think !
~Time Lord~

 

Sidestepping the whole 'how you get put back together' issue for the time being (need to think about that some more!), I'd just like to comment on the respawn point thing that was mentioned earlier.

The way it was explained in DDO (the only MMO I really know a fair amount about!), was that you could visit a healer in a tavern and make an arrangement to become 'spirit-bound' to them. If you later died and there was no PC healer to raise you (or carry your 'body' (soul stone) to a shrine), you would respawn at that same healer. Which, if you hadn't made arrangements with someone else in a while, could be a very long way from where you died...

It's a way of explaining how you end up elsewhere, if nothing else.

 

Honestly right now I think that should just be what we as uo fans recall ,,,, rez by a PC,Shrine or Npc healer .... not that im not open to new or some of the cool ideas above ... just not in episode one ....as it stands the scale of game features keeps growing but time remains the same :O)

 

I think there's another issue of, "why are these monsters killing me if they don't intend on eating me"?
We haven't really talked about being able to carry anyone's body away as Karrolanth mentions and that's a good point.
Can anyone drag my body away? It could add some game depth if there were some benefits from saving our friend's body.

I can see leaving somebody like Bowen's body behind...

But Karrolanth, "No Way"!
~Time Lord~