Combat and PVP team update!

That being said, then realism isn't the goal. Suspending our disbelief is more likely the goal. Is it believable in a fantasy setting? Can elves make accurate shots with a bow while sprinting, because their reflexes are so amazing, and they've had a few hundred years of experience? I LOVED IT IN LORD OF THE RINGS! I had no problem with Legolas firing off unlimited arrows and leaping on the back of a huge beast killing it and the joke was made "that is still just one kill..." nobody would really be able to do that, nor would jokes be thrown around when you could die the next second by an arrow or somebody stabbing you in the back.

So the point is more likely to create something that isn't stupidly unbelievable.

 

I disagree with your premise.

 

Mishri <---<<< Everything this guy said... yep, yep, yep...!


The bullet killed the arrow, and mage power is that bullet, with just a more wide variety of bullet types. So if we are to equal these to a level playing field, the only way is through the un-real. "Yet distance should very much matter to both!" in terms of power and accuracy.

On another subject I found interesting and important within the video, is the thinking that area effect spells should not damage your friendlies. This could be just as with the above with the arrow and the other direct aimed mage spells, but I believe that friendly fire should do everyone in the effected area spell, or missed direct spell's way. I believe it's a convenience for mage area effects to not damage everything within it's effected area. Whether that effect is to heal or to harm makes no difference to my opinion, "You throw a grenade, everybody runs from the grenade"... if you are standing in napalm, everyone gets burned in it. Margery should not rule our world through such conveniences, just the same as when a hand held weapon is swung, it cannot hit what it cannot reach.

Maybe Portalarium or someone else can find a good argument that could change my mind, yet I believe that stand off weapons by their nature of distanced ability have far more power than they should when they do not do damage to friend as well as foe when they are I the effected area of effected line to target. You can even that system of distance and friendly fire ability to not his friendlies... "But you can also even it out I combating others, even if you have the effected area or lie a place where everyone can get damaged"... Magic is a support weapon because it is a stand off weapon and not a front line weapon, which is the job of the more melee skilled player.

In real life (which can be useful for example of lost game play), support weapons had to accept their place as a stand off weapon, where they were not of great use when closed with the enemy, because if they continued their area effects, then friendly fire would kill their friendlies. Thus, when considering what spell to use when your front line has closed with the enemy, then more pointed, aimed and target specific fire needed to be employed. The pure mage is a stand off weapon, the hybrid is the dual purpose ad the melee knight is the front line and his front line to fight and not the pure mages place to do anything but snipe.

For now, those are my thoughts on friendly fire, support weapons, hybrid weapons and melee weapons...
Where the Avatar is the weapon!
~Time Lord~

 

It makes me wonder, we know there are different swords with different damage and speeds. will there be the same for the bows? Could the bows use different kinds off arrows? Like damage +1 or Ice arrows, fire arrows, things of that nature? They could mostly be aesthetic, or not......Muahahhahahahaha

 

Like i said, you need a really light draw, I'll bet that is a 15-20lb draw on that bow he is using, you wont penetrate leather with that, and only inflict superficial wounds. (bleed a bit). That is the difference between archery competition, and battle(or hunting) archery. They are very different with different requirements. You really want the lowest weight draw you are allowed with competition, and still reach max range, so you don't get too tired, and because you don't need to penetrate/inflict serious wounds. With hunting/battle you want maximum power behind each hit so you can penetrate and cause damage. If you've fired competition bows and then went and tried an 85lb draw you'll see what i'm talking about... My dad's friend uses an 85lb draw, it is quite a strain to pull it, I can barely do it and it takes awhile to pull back, like a second for my brain to communicate how much energy i need to put into pulling it back, plus the form is slightly different when you go that high, you sort of have to pull down (hold the bow up).

Also, in archery competitions your targets are standing still, in a controlled setting with set distances, and usually it's only 18-25meter distances for indoors, and 30-90meter outdoors. you'll notice all of his competitive shooting in that video is indoor, very close range. much easier shots. I shoot in my garage at 20m and can group them right in the middle every time, thats a 20 meter shot. no wind, no distractions, outdoors, longer range is much harder. once I get to about 40+ yards and the wind is gusting I have a much bigger spread, I still always hit the target, but not like the nice groupings in my garage.

The only archery competition i've ever shot in was field archery.. (unmarked distances, rough terrain, no even footing) it's the only fun way for me to shoot, indoors, fields, or marked distances isn't challenging to me... I've done archery since I was 6 years old. I bow hunt every year, and I don't use tree stands (people who shoot in tree stands know their distances, I spot and stalk hunt)

 

That's a good question. I'm not into archery, but I wouldn't imagine that there is much difference in the draw speed of similar type bows. Of course cross bows are slower to reload than long bows.

Maybe there could be speed differences, but maybe their could be damage differences. Perhaps composite bows could allow for using some of the strength bonuses to damage, but have a little bit longer draw. For some players who choose to boost their dex and leave STR at a moderate level this might not benifit them, but a player that is an archer that also has a high strength this might be something to consider.

EDIT: Could also increase distance a bit too, for stronger players, but for average players it is about the same. Allows people to have different archery strategies.

 

Personally I think I would like to create an archer that is stealth. So I'm guessing I would be a more dexterity based character. Light footed, and carrying very little in my pack. Ability to hide in shadows, and act as a scout of some kind, but maximized in long range combat, and armor piercing accuracy strikes.

However a guy who has two weapon styles might already be strong and wearing medium armor. His strength would likely be higher, and might even use a different type of bow. Less finesse.

 

Ya, the scenario with a combat archer would be much like a mage, he would need protection because he can stand behind the lines and just plink away, but that would make him an instant target hehe.

 

I think the balance trap here is that this game is both a multi-player game that wants to encourage group party dynamics, but is also a single player game. So balancing things so that they work in single player and have the team dynamic (such as you said above about protecting your archer) is going to be exceptionally difficult.

 

"Strategy, The Lost Art of Online Combat"
If it's not difficult, the it would probably not be anything new or inventive. I off line, there's not that much to balance to.
I do very much enjoy that such things as a bow or even magic stand off weapons could be deepened in their complexity enough to provide room for a more strategy based game.

"Beating Our Competition, Through Deeper Thoughtful Design"
We can't be anything new by graphics... because all graphics have bee done before in the world of gaming... Star Citizen, being at the top...
We can't compete in PvP unless we have a deeper strategy based game... because all easy PvP has bee all done before in so many ways...
But as with these suggestions and opinions stated above, we can compete by integrating and more strategy based system, "In Everything We Do!"

Always Keep Thinking Ever Deeper Ultima!
~Time Lord~

 

"And the crowd goes wild with applause!" *whistle* *pop* *bang* *woot*

 

It's been a while since the team has focused on something so important to me (I mean combat, not PvP). I had forgotten how emotional it can be. I'm both excited and concerned. I have faith in the team, but I know how important our feedback is to their decision-making process.

At these junctures, my concern that my interests will not coincide with the team's interests, blooms. I get more concerned when I see them leaning toward something like wands and staves being spell reservoirs. Which to my mind is a terrible idea in a classless system. That works in D&D because only magic-using classes can wield them, preserving the classic wand/stave wizard image. In a classless system though, it is my belief that wands and staves of this nature will see very little use by "wizards," because they can already do everything the wand/stave is doing. Instead, it will become the back up/ranged weapon of fighters and hybrids everywhere (those who can afford it anyway). And for me, that is bad. Wands and Staff mechanics should be designed to encourage wizardly types to use it more than any other archetype.

In the end, I know they'll come up with something that works, but right now... it's nail-biting time.

 

"They Say a Picture is Worth 1000 Words" and my key board's "n" isn't working so....


"Can You Dig It?"
Maybe a staff could hold a charge and a wand could be for greater distance casting...
Like sort of the opposite from the way guns are...
Or maybe wads could fail less...
That's market designing
~Time Lord~
X

 

I disagree with your premise that it can only be done with a really light draw weight bow.

Longbows recovered from the wreck of the Mary Rose have draw weights in excess of 120 pounds... And those bowmen would/could nock, draw, and loose at a blistering pace, for extended periods of time. Not that that is directly germane to the conversation at hand, but prior to that discovery, the concept of longbows of that weight was preposterous... The belief being that only foot bows could possibly have such draw weights.

What makes this germane to the current discussion is that what appears to be impossible to modern man often isn't... And, never underestimate what is possible when you've done something your whole life starting from a very young age. I could easily see an equivalent development with short composite bows of lethal draw weight. Especially at the ranges we're talking about instead of the long volley fire employed by longbowen.

I'd really love to be able to meet a welsh longbowman in the flesh... what latissimus development they must have had!

 

You bring up something else that is sticks out to me. It appears humanly impossible to continually fire a longbow with a draw weight in excess of 120 pounds. It seems reasonable to think that, because for the untrained person it is impossible.

There must be serious technique and training to learn how to draw that bow without straining your muscles. I would love to see a Nova Science Special on this topic, because it seems to me there must be a scientific reason they are able to do this. The technique they used must some how give them a mechanical advantage, and also the shape of the bow must have played a roll. This cannot be purely strength based because the average human is just not that strong.

Therefore I propose ... 1. maybe somebody can look up to see what the science behind it is...

2. How about just assuming higher level bowmanship skills will allow us to use more potent bows effectively because the skill increase enables us to effectively use the bow as designed.

**************
Innate skills on weapons? -- ???

I know they said a person can use higher level gear at any level, but perhaps when it comes to certain weapons that have Powerful Innate skills perhaps those innate skills cannot be unlocked unless a person is skilled enough with the weapon type. Or the inate skill increases in proportion to the skill level of the user.

 

Those longbows were used for distance against armies, you just needed your arrow to land in a general vicinity, not aimed shots. see braveheart for the technique. According to my dad those welsh bowmen had curved/bowed backs/spines from the strain of pulling that bow and using the muscles on that side. They absolutely weren't loosing arrows that quickly with a bow @120lbs, the draw weight is realistic, what isn't is your idea that you can use it that quickly. There are reasons why in battle they wouldn't just shoot as fast as they possibly could and they delayed volleys of arrows, not just tactically, but for the person pulling the bows being able to continue doing it all day, and so the enemy had chance to close ranks (tighter ranks = higher hit percentage) These shots were well over hundreds of yards away. Lighter bows were used for hunting and murdering. Lars Anderson in that video is not using a 120lb draw longbow. I'm sure the bow he is using is under 50lbs(My guess is 30lbs). It wouldn't have the distance penetrating power, let see him shoot someone in ringmail or leather at 100 yards and see. (he did a close up 15 yard shot at ringmail, and no ballistics gel to see how far it would penetrate) All of his shots are really close(easy) compared to what you would face when hunting or for battle (100 yards or more) 20 yards is a piece of cake, and many of his shots were closer than that. Basically, I'd want to see him shoot a moving target while he is also moving at 100+ yards and penetrate leather.

Also, I want to see real-time footage of him doing these feats over and over again, you don't think they took a bunch of takes for him to hit his targets? that he has 100% accuracy while moving? Standing still with a 65lbs draw yes, i have 100% accuracy at his range, but not moving. Once I draw I can move, but then im holding all that weight. while moving and I'll tire fast and lose accuracy. It's physically impossible for me to get the leverage to draw while moving with that much weight. But like i said, it's possible with light bows, like he is using in the video, he could even draw it on 1 foot, you can do that with light bows. 45lbs and under draws are just much easier to work with and do stunts with, but lack distance penetration. so like i said, light bows, less damage, less focus usage, heavy bows more damage, more focus.

 

Just some ideas on WORLD pvp and how to take a stab at it.

PVP will be full loot that is with out question. Maybe tie a few important items to character. IE house crests and capes.
NPC cities are NPC and with NPC guards.
Player run cities will only have NPC guards if the Duke/Prince/Landowner and of the town pays for them with the taxes they are receiving from renters on their land. Renters will be able to move to and from the town safely within the reaches of the town. They will see their taxed gold at work protecting them. If a pk doesn't see the guards he will be killed on town is hes a flagged pker etc. Or only if he attacks someone.

Even for mines. A house takes a mine and then posts guards/ or a timer to go live for combar. The guild has to pay a maintenance for the guards to stay there. These guards can be destroyed unlike player city guards. These guards will not attack allies. Another enemy guild can take the mine and post their guards. Mines will have levels of ore rarity and the more popular mines will only get access from the bigger guilds.

Now the houses have something to fight over. Now the little guilds need to get more members so one day they can be strong enough to at least hold a weak mine to get some ore for armors housing material etc. Guilds with no fighting power to hold a mine will either need to ally or be absorbed. Some fighting guild may even see the need to team up with a crafter guild so they can turn their spoils into loot they can sell and make profits for their house/guild.
So now the Royals of their land need to entice renters. They can provide protection and even try and entice RP entertainers like a minstrel. These people are responsible for the towns safety. If by chance they do not provide it then the renters will find a better place to live.

This opens up a lot of roleplay. Now Dukes will have to entice people to their towns by offering roleplay/pvp cities. Why they need the rent $$ for guards. People that see their towns with nothing to entice renters will eventually go elsewhere. These Royals will have to decide on a house name and also need champions and knights ! These knight can be loyal or even spies.

 

Why are you stating this as fact? Has there been some announcement made as to the details of looting in Shroud of the Avatar?

As for the rest of your proposal, I believe linking resources to player owned towns is a bad idea. Also, as the owner of a Village who will NOT be flagging his settlement as open PvP, forcing me and my residents into any situation where PvP is mandatory is a violation of the promise stated since the beginning of the Kickstarter, and oft repeated since then, including in the most recent Hangout, that PvP will be consensual.

Just curious, as people seem to only wish to see comments on systems from the people directly involved in them, what size settlement do you own?

 

I've been noticing a lot of that lately. People acting like the design goals for loot have changed, but I have seen no indication that they have discussed such a change. Unless it's in Dev+, at which point it shouldn't be mentioned out here to begin with.

I was really excited to see some new activity in this thread because it has been so interesting and not bogged down by the standard debates. I was disappointed when it turned out to be more "full loot" discussion. Sigh.

 

No haven't seen anything even in the Dev + section. As far as I know the plan is still that there is not going to be full loot for the reasons which were stated previously by Chris about wanting people to use there best gear