SPO and SP Offline

There's no need to be snarky. I think the difference here is that we have a chance to see and discuss the game pre-alpha. Or at least a large community of people is getting the chance. Ideas have been presented before they've been added to releases. They even did a little segment on the overall story way back when because such things have been and are under development. They have to have a vision at some level for the relationship between modes here, single and group play.

I think the plea is always to get a chance to get some information pre-release as part of the insight into the dev process. (This has been done before many times.) Otherwise, we're just speculating and they could just leave everything til it was released. When it is shared is up to them, but it's also possible to express concerns and ask for what's going on behind the scenes. The answer of "it will naturally come later" or "trust us it's coming" or "I trust LB, they know what they're doing" are fine, but not insights into what's going on. Nor are they absolutely true and able to allay concerns generated by what can be seen at this point, whether those concerns eventually prove to be true or unfounded.

The point: let Portalarium dismiss the concerns if they really are invalid, and let people push for more info since the boundaries of what it means to be part of the dev process (as mentioned on the KS) are not defined. This is just part of trying to understand and be sympathetic to a wide variety of people with a wide variety of interests and concerns.

 

Ironically you inadvertently pointed to the main reason to be concerned U9. U9 was destroyed because the team supposed to be making it were wasted with UO and it was a POS. Completely technically broken in every respect but SPECIFICALLY the game play and the story. If U7 was something to bring hope, U9 is the reason to fear

 

The problem I and many others see is that those "core elements" are designed with an MMO as focus and thus won't work as well for a single player game. So even while working on the core elements the single player should always be considered, too. How will this work in SP? Will this feature work in SP as well as in MP? If we include this MP feature then that SP feature will not make it in the game. If we include this SP feature then the MP fans will jump at us etc.

 

I'm fine in letting Portalarium dismiss concerns as they see fit. Again, I'm not here to shut anyone up.

However, look at the OPs list of REASONS why he's concerned and then you suddenly see why this entire thread is just silly. Reasons such as "the automated attacks being an MMO trope that ruins single-player" when it's been like this in games like Ultima 7 and Baldur's Gate... or reasons like "perhaps that maybe it'll affect this in some way".... no ****.

If threads like these go uncontested, all it does is fuel the people that agree into thinking that they're the majority.

Yes, they've been added because those ideas were proper to the current state of the game. It's pre-alpha and people are already worried about stuff that won't even be properly thought of until way later in the development... because that's how it works.

It's too early to be concerned with it.

They had to pull a lot people from U9 to work on UO; not exactly what I call a reason to fear. It still made a crappy product but, so long as the dev team is focused on ONE product at a time, everything's fine.

It's always good design practice to be considering all these aspects when thinking about game design.

It's also kind of insulting when people assume that you didn't do your job, though. Because, essentially, that's what you're concerned with... that they haven't thought about it when they're implementing systems.

They know more about the game than we do. Our "job" is to give them feedback on things that are CURRENTLY in the game that we like and don't like.

"Hey man, you're making a pizza? Cool! You're mixing the sauce! I like the taste of that sauce but I was expecting a pizza with dough and pepperoni... and don't forget the cheeze!"

 

Just pointing out this is not the same team that made that game. There are a few i.e. less than half a dozen, of the original team involved here (if that really).

Also, U9 was a POS -- yes, IMHO.

Cheers.

 

Thanks

Sorry that I and many others are concerned. The reason why we are concerned is that those questions have not been answered yet. And even in the state we are now where the core elements are being designed some of those can be fundamentally different if you create a SP game or a MMO. And with the magic system of SotA we see that exactly this is happening. If SotA would a designed to be a full fledged SP-RPG (too) then the possibilities of creating an interesting, deep, complex, tactical and slow magic system that makes casting a fireball to something special would have been possible. Instead, spells are skills like gardening or cooking and you can cast a spell as often as you want - this is very clearly developed with fast PvP in mind. So a deeper (SP-focused) system had to be sacrificed for a fast MMO-focused system. The same with the dialogue system. It is an IRC chat in order to have it integrated into the global and player chat. This dialogue system has not been developed with an SP-focus in mind. This shows that there seems to be no focus on SP for the core system and this is very disconcerting for some of us.

 

That is maybe your interpretation of what this projects level of involvement means to you, but we can tell you that is not entirely correct.

I assume you have not really been following this since April of 2013, mainly because of the "how" you are making statements and also your attitude about how you know everything is exactly how it should be because of XYZ thing you have done.

I also have production experience, as do quite a number of others here, in games, movies, tv, and physical product pipelines.

No one is correct, because every place does things differently.

But also, no one is incorrect, because there are fundamental things everyone also does across all those pipelines, as they are time and tested proven things.

Our "job" is non-existent. Our fun and buy-in and resource investment is whatever we choose it to be, thus is the nature of opening development to crowd i.e. you get opinions and suggestions on everything because people have certain interests they are invested in which not every other person is invested.

The developers, on this project, have welcomed all manner of views in all aspects, just not with the vehemence certain people seem to be prone to wrap around it.

So, I'd suggest, as a fellow producer of goods in pipelines such as these, take a step back after writing a post tell everyone how it is. Cause unless you are working for Port, the only people who know how it is is Port, and they dont seem to agree with you.

Cheers.

 

So you're saying they should have never had the story discussion with Tracy Hickman last year because that would only be important later in development? I do worry about the quality of the story and single player mechanics. There's not zero within Portalarium on these topics currently. And they've released other design ideas that are not fully fleshed out. And the community (not me so much) has provided some good advice and recommendations when Port has done so.

Please. Your idea of a sequential and silo-ed process is a little simplistic IMHO.

 

side note:
I started playing Divinity: Original Sin - and I like their convo system presentation / it has mmo vibe yet still RPG oriented (not sure if you already mentioned this in one of your posts) ... convo in center mass of the screen when speaking to an npc is great (the chat system we have now is too small - at the moment)

 

I don't want to sound ironic and I apologize in case this post implies that, but sometimes I wonder that so much people seems to be experts. Maybe someone has played only hack'n'slay rpg's like Diablo so far, but - maybe - just one of the single player Ultimas too - not finished of course, but - maybe - for a few days. And whroom - we have an Ultima expert. Maybe our expert should publish a one hour review about Ultima and SotA on YouTube. Maybe someone has never designed a complex game nor coded a single line or controlled a big software project. Whatever! - this someone has played a few games and knows therefore everything about games. And so we get a game specialist and fledgling arm chair developer with a big sense of mission.

It is OK, if someone doesn't share the concerns of this OP. That's obvious. Moreover the preferences and the focus of game play - as for instance single player vs. multi player, story and companions vs. PvP and looting and so forth are different. Depending whereupon the own focus lies, will have impact how someone will judge the importance and reasonableness of this thread. And if someone thinks 'hey be patient, everything will be solved to the utmost satisfaction' this is OK too. But I think also that this thread has a right to exist. In this thread many people have expressed their concerns in a sufficient and logical manner (I know I'm just repeating myself - sorry for that). Some design decisions definitively will have effects on game playing like companions on PvP and dynamic events for instance. And - more important- some design decisions will be mutually exclusive. And all we want are answers to our questions or a road-map to give us some clarity.

But I wonder about some experts who negates the reasonableness of this thread.

 

... and here I thought we were making process yet we're still going in circles... yet again.
It's nothing against you perosonally, I hope you understand that.

No. What you see is a TREND that you've noticed in some MMOs... nothing more.
Just because something CAN, doesn't mean it IS. Again, you're using a lot of "maybe something can happen" logic that just doesn't hold up.

You say "would have been possible", I'm saying "it can still be possible". You unfortunately have a very narrow view on how game design works.
It's pre-alpha. The buttons and skills merely exists... sure, you can spam them NOW; that doesn't mean that's how they plan on doing it.

No it isn't. How do you sacrifice something that hasn't even been ADDED yet?

By your logic, Ultima 4 was designed for multi-player. If you're thinking about single-player, why do you assume that the chat box is to communicate with other players? If you're playing single-player, that chat box is only to communicate with NPCs... which is no different that how it was in Ultima 4.
"Oh noes! MMOs have ruined it all!" C'mon man!

You say Portalarium doesn't agree with me yet Retro just recently posts a link to an interview where Richard Garriott and Star Long personally mirrors exactly what I've been saying from my very first reply. But, you know, whatever you say.
Your entire posts just reads "I disagree with you" without any counter-arguments... so, say what you will.

Design ideas discussed and implemented were systems, not content; there's a very important distinction between the two.

I understand computer programming just fine. Not to mention I write my own with procedural content. I also understand how software works. Ultima isn't powered by pixie magic. I also have worked on published games as an artist not to mention was trained by Ubisoft Montreal's best; so I know how professional pipeline works.

I'm not an expert on Ultima. I never claimed to be... but I sure as hell understand how to build a video game.

It's nice to know you've seen my video, though. Although, I'll point out that, while I grew up on Diablo, doesn't mean that's all I played... I guess that explains why we have so much difficulty understanding each other.




Look guys, it's really, really simple:
- If what is missing should be part of the game systems that is currently in the build, now's your chance to speak up!
- Everything else = Pre-alpha.

But, you know what? Do whatever you want! I thought I'd explain how things normally work but, apparently, I'm the bad guy with a limited view on things. Okay, fine. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose. I thought I could hang out here but this community isn't worth it. I'd say "I'll see you online" but you guys won't be online so...

 

Ultima 4 is not the single player design standard that this game is supposed to live up to, ultima 7 is. Saying something is "designed for multiplayer" just because it resembles a far-outdated communications mechanic is a bit obtuse. The point he's trying to make here is that the conversation system far more closely resembles that of an MMO than it does any recent single player RPG.

This is a sore topic for many of us, as the current conversation is woeful at best, and being forced to consume the major storyline through an MMO chat window (cause that's what it is, no matter how you spin it) strips all the drama and immersive-ness.

 

Agreed, I should have stopped typing at U8 or better yet U7 , however the point is still valid U3 to U7 (8 for some) were great games, same with UO proving they know how to make a good game especially single player.

I'll be the first one to complain with you if the single player game is a sucky afterthought with poorly developed companions, however there is no evidence of them dropping the ball and lots of evidence that says they haven't even started working on implementing story\single player aspects yet besides map locations\instancing. (like the video above) The fact that they hired Tracy to work on the story should be reason enough not to worry.

Lord Darkmoon I was with you on the "cloth map" wars , I just think this battle is a little premature IMHO...but what do I know carry on.

Nothing wrong with *Concern* threads they let the dev's know how passionate we are about certain aspects of SotA's development.

Cheers

 

The last we heard on companions was not very encouraging. I think it was during a deep dive (there are just so many videos out now, it's impossible to keep track), but they basically said that companions would have as much backstory and text as any npc and implied that their functionality as far as personality would pretty much end there. No plans for companions to interject or take part in the story. That was a few months ago and of course nothing is set in stone, but I got the distinct impression that they felt that having lots of text that you had to tease out of them was enough. If that's the case, we're in trouble. If my companions can't comment on the story and take part in it, I think we're in for a pretty hollow single player experience.

 

No you missed my point.

Like I said, you have not been here long enough because the "proof" you ask for is right here in the various statements on the forum and in the hangouts.

Yes, they said something contradictory in yet another hangout, OMG, what a shocker.

If you had been here and read and participated in the conversations on these various outliers, or just go digging yourself, you'd see there is often a conflict in what they say, or how or even why they say it.

To date there have been more conversations about what they expect from the community (all inclusive voices), in their terms, than telling us to just focus on what is in front of us.

You are attempting to tell people how to react on a forum, given this open development, after we have all fumbled in the dark, into some middle ground of light, in the last 18 months, as guided by Portalarium, in forums, chat rooms and via hangouts, but find I have no proof of that?

Then you absolutely have not paid much attention to the message and design they have been laying out.

 

other than this single mention, which i do recall, they have been deftly side-stepping the issue of companions. If they DO ever have increased functionality, I have a feeling that the eventual word will be, similar to stealing, "not for episode 1."

 

Watch the Kickstarter video that as the look of a SPRPG, and the scene with Richard, Steven & Dallas looks like companions following the Avatar.

 

Hm, I think different points of view and opinions shouldn't make us worthless.

 

Until when should we wait to voice our concern? Until all the systems are integrated and it is too late or too much work to change them? We are in pre-alpha, now is the best time to show the devs what we would like to see in the game so that they can eventually add it from the beginning and not either try to shove it in afterwards or have to neglect it because it is too late.

 

What's not simple, and what you fail to understand is the whole way community participation in this project works. Concerns can be raised about anything in design or implemented, or even ideas that Portalarium hasn't even conceived. In fact on many occasions they have encouraged this.

The video statement you quote with Retro is nothing in the context of all that's been said and done since the KS, is not definitive, and most definitely in context does not have the flavor of what you are saying.

You can. Just cut out the rude bits you keep putting in your posts, and relax and try to have fun with what community participation is all about. Those of us who've been here before have been down the road with people like you who basically say "trust Portalarium, this is the way it works, trust LB, don't worry." At the start I was even like that too!

Gix look at the amount of posting you have done compared to all the people you are speaking to. After you've been here a year, it would be interesting to see what you think. My perspectives have changed and grown, and I hope yours do too.

Please realize we understand where you're coming from but we don't agree. And that's ok. Maybe figure out what you want to propose for "being part of the dev process" and focus your energy there.