SPO and SP Offline

A conversation in another thread drew me to make this post, wondering just what the status of these two modes are and where they fall into importance for the development team.

When the game was announced on kickstarter, it was anounced with three online modes and no offline mode. As the kickstarter campagn continued Offline mode was added.

I'm not sure at this point in time how playable this game will be in either of the SP modes.

Many things were said during the kickstarter campaign on a deep storyline that could be played all SP if you wanted with choices that matter. Companions that would join you on adventure. Deep dungeons to explore etc.

Now...fast forward to today and we have people on the forums saying SP just doesn't matter. We see more and more features supporting a MMO and companions have droped of the face of the earth no matter how many threads get brough up about it.

To be out in the open, I will be playing SPO and moving up to the other two levels of play depending on my mood. I have a lot and house that will be constantly online so I will be involved. But...I like my space.

I guess my question is at the end of all that is where has SPO and SP Offline fallen to? I'm hoping that they still get the same level of focus that many who paid into this want.

 

I don't think they've particularly fallen anywhere. It's just SP isn't really a hot topic.

The devs have pretty much said they won't be testing offline as they don't want to spoil the story or some such. If you think about it though, if anything is working online, odds are they're working offline. So there isn't a lot of concern there. I really don't see much that is offline that won't be online.

Also honestly, it's not a very exciting topic. Most of the things people want to know about aren't even related to the story. People want to know what they can do after the story is over.. which in SPOff may not be much.

I will be playing online obviously. Between my guild and other ventures.. I'll be quite busy I'm sure.. but I'll also be playing offline.. especially in the opening months while I wait for that hopeful switch back to DSL and unlimited bandwidth. (11 months to go! *fingers crossed*).

 

You take the words right out of my mouth At the moment PvP gets all the attention and PvE, SPO and SP Offline seems to be off the cards. I understand that not all options can be in the spotlight at one and the same time. But some PvP lovers are very vocal and try to push SotA in an UO2 direction. I wonder if the PvE lovers should be vocal too.

 

I agree it's not a contensous topic on the forums as say PVP. What prompted this thread was someone basically scoffing at the idea that the game would be single player as well.

Companions is a topic avoided like crazy now by the Devs. I guess my biggest concerns is that it seems instead of a tight story driven game they seem to be moving towards a full sandbox game. I think Trady said yesterday story != single player...which he is right...you need a lot more things to make it not feel like an empty MMO. This can't be a thing they tack on at the end, systems specifically designed for multiplayer may not operate well by yourself, such as dungeons being balanced for one(or with companions who knows).

Like I said, I will be playing SPO mostly depending on my mood move up and down. That way when/if people bug me I can be left alone

 

Exactly.

We are already seeing talk about gear that is all crafted and all the best gear comes from that....how on earth will that work for the single player game? Will they have crafters (npc's) to buy off of? Will dungeons hold no interesting items in order to increase the economy that doesn't matter in the offline modes and probably holds just a little interest to the SPO crowd?

Companions....mean not much to the MMO crowd, but to the Ultima fans they were pretty important...distinctive even of an Ultima game.

It's frustrating to see this. This is the only RPG that wasn't a mmo where the games monsters are called PVE instead of just plain old monsters.

 

Single player and offline are both very important elements for me. So I hope that SotA will play like a single player RPG in single player mode. I expect the world to be alive just like in other SP-RGS. I expect the monsters to stay dead, at least the bosses, after I defeat them. I expect the economy of the game to balanced for a SP-RPG, too.
I expect interesting NPCs that behave like in a SP-RPG and yes, I expect companions with their own backstory etc.
Why do I expect that? That is how the game was described during the Kickstarter Phase. A MMO that you can play offline and in single player but that feels empty is not a single player RPG.

Actually I backed SotA because I expected it to be like the single player Ultimas with the option to go online and play with others in a sandbox.

 

In terms of mechanics and such I just don't see a lot of difference between SP and multi-player.. I suppose that sounds a bit odd and in need of explanation.

The behind the scenes work for single player offline is largely necessary in order to finish online play. Take PvP for example. In balancing combat for PvP now, it is easier to balance for PvE which is necessary for both online and offline. The combat mechanics for offline will be same as online combat mechanics. You just won't see PvP offline.. but you will see everything else.

Most things you need for online housing also apply offline.. except that offline doesn't need rent etc.. but placement, purchasing, decoration.. all those mechanics you need online.. are the same offline.

I can continue but I think you get the idea. The story is supposed to be playable online as well.. and if works online.. it'll work offline.

The biggest question I think.. or to me the most interesting.. is going to be companion AI. If you're playing a completely open world there may not be a need for NPC companions.. as it may seem odd for a bunch of players running around town all being followed by copies of the same NPCs. But in Friends Only or SP you might need them for areas designed for multiple characters.

Obviously players are more intelligent and therefore usually more effective in a fight. So will they be able to balance encounters dynamically based on whether you have PCs with you vs NPCs? How intelligent is the NPC combat AI going to be? and how is the game going to regulate how many companions will accompany you at any given time?

 

They did talk about seeding the single player game with crafted gear. Also the possibility of giving the player the option of periodic world updates. Here's something to consider.. if the world market for offline is indeed seeded with crafted items from the beta. There won't be any buyers offline to compete with the player. So essentially, you'll have your pick of all those items all to yourself. Imagine the same to be true of the offline loot tables.

Plus optional periodic updates will only increase the items available to the offline game.

 

It's not only the balancing but in single player companions serve another purpose. They are a part of the story and the atmosphere. If you take a look at Ultima 7 or Baldur's Gate or Dragon Age that is the kind of companions most expect. They have a backstory, a place in the world, their own agenda, they contribute to the story, you can talk to them, they have their own opinions, you may be able to romance some of them, you care for them, etc.

Also I want to be able to manage their gear and advance their skills myself the way I see fit.

 

I don't see any particular conflict there between online and offline play.. except it may seem awkward online for everyone to know the same people but I'm sure players will work around that in their own way.

If the story is playable online.. and they've said it will be.. that includes key companion characters with all of that which you seek.

 

If you play SP Offline, then you won't miss out on anything, because you can craft the best gear yourself. If you play online, then you can buy gear from a vendor without ever seeing the crafter. Will you be offline or online? SPO is ambiguous.

There were merchants buying and selling in R8, so I assume they will still be there upon release.

I assume loot will be equally interesting as in multiplayer modes, which is also good news in that it's supposed to be at least as good as player crafted , since it will be based on player crafted, so if you don't want to make your own, you can pick it up as loot.

 

For everything that can be done in SPO and offline it can be done in the other modes. The main portion you are looking for is the story and how it developes, I am assuming.

This is something they have been tight lipped about since the beginning and I'd hope you would not want them to spoil anything for you.

 

+1 to the OP

At this point, SotA doesn't look like a game that combines the best of MMOs and Single Player RPGs, but more like a MMO, that can be played offline, if someone really wants to (at this point I don't see a reason to play this game offline at all, since I would never play a MMO offline, when there are fantastic solo player RPGs out there and thanks to kickstarter even more are coming (can't wait for Pillars, Wasteland 2 and the coming Planescape game). I know I sound rather negative, but it's better to become clear early.

My question is: What has SotA to offer for the fans of the classical Ultima games and fans of more traditional role playing games? The Kickstarter campaign was advertised as a combination of the best of the single player Ultima games and Ultima Online. At this moment, I see just another MMO (a good one, don't get me wrong, but still only a MMO).

When I think about good single player RPGs, I think about games with depth in story, npc interaction, companions, quest solving and game mechanics.

You could say the story is the big difference to Ultima Online (which lacked massively in Story, NPC behavior, AI, quests, etc. and was such completely uninteresting for me): But a story is nothing, that will distinguish SotA from other MMOs. In fact, that's more or less standard for today's MMOs to include some kind of "epic storyline" (see Lord of the Rings Online...)

The problem of most MMOs is, that they lack depth in their game mechanics, especially when it comes to things aside from crafting, housing and fighting. For me they are closer to Hack'n Slash games than to more traditional RPGs. For SotA this became obvious, when Darkstarr answered my question to passive skills in the last hangout, where he only thought of passive combat skills (and maybe crafting). But what is with skills like exploration, leadership, lock picking, traps and trap defusion, repair skills, dialogue skills, rune reading and sage skills, climbing and other agility skills, everything that is useful outside of combat or to avoid combat and add a huge amount of depth to the character and game, since it allows for many different ways to solve quests. And with a party of companions, those different skills can be mixed to the greatest benefit.

As an example: You see a heavily fortified camp of bandits in front of you, where is an item you need to get. In most MMOs you don't have many possibilities outside of fighting and maybe some sneaking. In a traditional RPG you have to do reconnaissance first, then maybe send someone over the walls at night, when the guards are sleeping and try to open the gates from inside. Or disguise your group as bandits and get inside through clever dialogue. Or have someone who can talk to animals, who gets informations, that there's some kind of underground passage into the camp, etc. Examples for RPGs, that mastered depths are Baldurs Gate 2, Fallout 2, Realms of Arkania, Ultima IV (Serpent Isle had a fantastic story and companion system, but was very linear), Planescape Torment, Deus Ex (I managed to complete the game without killing anyone except the endboss I think; I even managed to stun the guy in the cathedral; one of the reasons I don't like PvP in MMOs is, that I don't see why killing is a necessity) or the newer Wasteland 2.

In a good RPG, you can often find some way to prevent direct combat (through sneaking, talking, intelligence, some kind of trick, etc.) and you still get the same rewards for achieving the greater goal. In most MMOs, everything circles around combat (PvP or PvE) and you get the best rewards through killing the strongest bosses or enemies.

Another important thing for traditional RPGs is some kind of companion system (something I missed in Morrowind and Ultima 8). Ultima 7 was fantastic in this regard. You had companions with believable backgrounds, that talked to you, had their own opinion and it was very tragic, when something bad happened to them. In most MMOs NPC companions have only one purpose, to help you solve some quests that you couldn't achieve alone (because you can only be a dd, tank, heal or support). It doesn't matter if they live or die. One of the worst example out there is Lord of the Rings Online, where the captain can summon a bannerman, who always fights besides him, but is nothing more than a soulless puppet (same goes for skirmish companions or the animals of the Lore Master; just compare them to the fantastic animal companions in Fallout New Vegas...).

And just one more point, since I could write forever: In a good RPG every character with a brain has a motivation and there are reasons, why they are aggressive or even attack you. In fact most people think of themselves as the hero of their own story and believe in the greater good they're doing, even when most other people see them as "evil". In most MMOs or Diablo like games enemies have no other motivation than "I'm evil...", which is extremely boring. Why should the animals in the hill landscape of SotA attack me and continue their attack even when they realize, that they don't stand a chance? Or why do the kobolds in the cave attack you alone and don't alarm their huge amount of friends, that stand 50m away and see everything? This doesn't make any sense and I hate it in every MMO, where it's a necessity to make enemies blind, deaf and stupid...

At this moment, I'm a bit sceptical if SotA can become the game I was looking for (especially when rewatching the first interviews and rereading the kickstarter announcements and compare them to what we have now). And in the coming releases I can only see other typical MMO stuff. And even when the story gets implemented some day, I doubt that SotA can compete with the traditional solo player RPGs.

Since this is still an early release I won't abandon hope, but I will continue to express my reservations as long as I see no development...

 

I agree rune, the single player games have dropped off the map. Its all about balancing builds in PvP but single player needs to be balanced so you can play by yourself, you need to be able to take on all the enemies yourself or with companions and if there are going to be companions (as we were promised) then they have to be balanced too, how are they going to work.

In the case of single player online how are they ensuring that monsters are challenging for parties yet are not impossible to fight in Single Player

How is the economy going to be balanced for the offline game? you are supposed to be able to craft and sell if you want but you also need to be able to buy. How will they ensure that there is a reason to earn money in the offline game without putting a player at risk of going bankrupt and not being able to pay for a sword repair?

An offline game takes as much work and detail as an online one needs to be approached seriously rather than just tacked on like the single player campaign in Battlefield. A LOT of us don't care about the MMO, a lot of us never played UO and only played the numbered Ultima and a lot of us only pledged because we were told there would be a good single player game in this

 

I agree. Thank you for your excellent statement, AndiZ275.

 

There is so much more to a single player RPG than following a story and doing quests.
How about decisions that can have an impact on NPCs and maybe the whole world? As AndiZ275 said, what about different solutions to quests? Can I sneak into a camp, can I persuade the guards? What about monsters in a dungeon - in a single player game they are carefully placed and don't respawn (mostly)?
Conversations: The presentation of conversations is totally different - take a look at Dragon Age or maybe Baldur's Gate or Ultima 7 and compare those conversation interfaces with what we have now or even what other MMOs offer.
A party and companions as we already said. And even the feeling of accomplishing something by killing the dragon overlord and he doesn't respawn...

 

Here are things people seem to be missing -- just because what we see in each release isn't the entirety of the project that doesn't mean there isn't progress on the things we haven't seen & offline mode will need to be tested but because of the interlinking dependancies online/multi-player needs to be balanced first and then the balance for offline can begin. Bowen has made these points and I agree with him.

Making assumptions about how the game is going to be at this stage is nothing more than mind games, until all the major aspects of the game have had their first pass and can be tested we can't begin to test the things that need the semi-persistent world. I expect that by christmas we'll have a much better idea of what things will actually look like in the game.

I'd rather see them focus for a time on a specific area of the game and get it working right than have them try to spread the focus over everything all the time. So right now they're focused on Combat and PvP balance within combat, but if you watched the hangout the other day you'd know that Richard is spending time working on crafting food and all it's interdependant aspects. We haven't seen any food in the releases aside from some alcoholic beverages but that doesn't mean the only food in episode 1 is going to be liquid based, it just means it's not ready YET.

I'm all for making suggestions of what I'd like to see and I strongly encourage others to do the same but making posts that state with unjustified certainty, about what the final look and feel of the game is going to be is a little premature.

To quote Yoda "Patience young padawan, patience"

Just my thoughts on the matter YMMV

 

It was mentioned in a Dev chat somewhere that every player crafted item that is discarded in whatever way is put into a loot table that is then spawned on NPC monsters or dungeon chests. The spo would then loot these items from monsters as well. If the sp logs on even once in a blue moon for updates, then their mob loot tables can be updated with the new player crafted items as well.

 

I really really really hope you are right (but the danger of always being quiet is, that one day, it could be too late; and then they will say: Why didn't you tell us earlier...)

 

The difference is that the devs will talk about those things. We already know a great deal about how food will work. Now, try to get some specifics about single player (not about the story... there is a great deal more to single player than a plotline) and listen to the crickets chirrup. Nothing. It's disconcerting how tight-lipped they are. The few times they do talk about a single player feature, such as portraits or close-ups during a conversation - which can totally change the atmosphere from mmo to true single player, the answer is always: "We having no plans for that."

Single player truly does feel like it's turning into something just tacked-on. If you bring it up, now matter how specific you are and no matter how many times you qualify it by saying "other than story spoilers," they push it aside and say something like: "the story is important, but we don't want to give it away."

It's like they cannot accept that a single player game is more than just the story. It's incredibly frustrating.

I love the dev team. They are great; they listen more often than not - which is no mean feat considering how much work is on their plates, but my concern for the viability of single player grows daily.