Combat far too frustrating

Two-handed swords are annoying actually. Wield 2 weapons, get two skill trees. Wield weapon+shield, get two skill trees. But there are no skills that a two-handed sword wielder gets that a 1-handed does not!

Two-Handed Sword gets:

1)Thrust (attack)
2)Double-Slash (better attack)
3)Rend - DoT, okay has some use.

There's also riposte and parry which "increase defensive values on the "caster"" (I don't know why parrying is a spell).
& Whirling Blades for AOE

And some passives - Vital Points, Blade Mastery, Blade Speed.

And a situational "coup-de-grace" that does double damage when someone is 20% or less health. So eyeball that one.

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That's it! It feels, to me, like 3 attacks. And of the three attacks, Thrust is good, Double-Slash is better - and the combo using both is worse (because it doesn't take into account strength modifiers).

If you use a shield you get some interesting stuff to use, and a stun. If you use two swords you get Offhand Attack & Trip to add to your arsenal.

Bludgeons looks better to me as two-handed. (Stun Attack, Knockback Attack, Stun+Knockdown attack, Reduce opponent's Armor attack & Reduce opponent's damage attack (group play), as well as AOE and some passives)

Polearms which is designed with two-handed in mind gives:

1) Attack that ignores armor
2) Attack with knockback
3) Extended range Attack that pulls target towards you
4) Attack that roots the target
5) Attack with knockdown

And has the AOE of the other trees, as well as one blocking skill and 2 passives.

I know there are certainly spells one can cast that combo with melee such as fire fist & thrust. But for someone who wants to play a two-handed sword warrior (that doesn't cast spells) your options are really limited! Try play a two-handed sword for awhile - you'll only want to use double-slash and the occasional Rend and a thrust after stacking. There are active buffs you can pull from the strength tree, but I think the blades tree needs some love. Remove one of the "increases defense on caster" skills - which are boring anyways, and give it something interesting. And maybe give some two-handed skills, you're really limited as a two-handed sword wielder unless you pull from the magic tree.

Edit - I left off the heavy armor tree of course you can put points there and get a stun attack without leaving the idea of a two-handed sword warrior. Light again gives buffs or defensive stuff. Pfft defense.

 

Good points Lord Andernut. I only play two handed axe bludgeons, and I am missing a few things for it to be fun for me. So I would like an ability to charge from a distance and have a chance to knockdown oponent on impact, also I'd like whirling axes, and perhaps a bleed inate chance. I don't really like inates as we have them working, I'd rather see most of them just happen with comments like **majorias hit causes excessive bleeding to grizzly bear** or **knockdown causes stun to skeleton**. Also I don't combo or like combo system as implemented. I don't want to drag combos since I mostly free attack and mash a few buttons. I don't want to interrupt the momentum by dragging some combos and they don't do all that much exciting stuff anyway, well in my opinion. I'd prefer they pop up or flash on screen when ready and we can hit the spacebar or appropriate key to activate them if we are in time. I also hope combat doesn't have us go clear through a bear to successfully free attack him/her.

 

Told ya XD @KuBaTRiZeS

 

I use one and two handed swords for combat and have adapted to the range issue by moving all the time in combat. I keep myself to the side or behind the enemy and try to move just before they swing (this is really easy to time with the Kobolds as they are slow). Before I move I cast heal. When I stop behind my opponent I double swing. After I swing I move again while they are turning towards me. Move, move, move... What's really annoying is when they 'slide' out of range after you move and your swings catch air. Sometimes I try to back them up against a rock wall or tree to keep them from backing off. What's really annoying is chasing down archers and mages. I find if you let them plant and shoot at you they stay still long enough to get a couple attacks in.

 

Thought about writing a deep and meaningful post giving thanks... but i'm too busy looking for a new thing to complain about!

Seriously though, this is a huge step in the right direction. As we discussed I thought they could settle for the system as it is (was! ) because why bother? but they do bother even more than i could imagine, taking a step further something that could be closed because they won't settle for it working. They want it to be awesome.

Now i'm a believer! I said i was betting my pledge here... The signs says it's time to raise the bet

EDIT: i'm also astonished how nobody's paying attention to that little point... I'm sure that inclusion is going to make combat amazing in the long run, and it's also part of the solution to many, many problems... With that and the skill usage system... it's like Christmas!

 

Yeah, the system should be pretty good. Still going to have some frustrations as we adapt and as the devs build it out.... but i too have become a believer (and this is a guy who didnt give much of a flip about PVP or even really basic PVE combat before)... and am pretty excited.

 

Just to comment on "realistic" weapon ranges. I'm cool with that so long as.. 1: The size of the critter is taken to account.. none of this center of the bear stuff. 2: Footwork is taken into account. When you attack you would normally step in with the blow.. an Avatar is 2 meters tall in Unity.. (here is where I shamelessly plug my suggestion that in-game, Unity meters be converted into yards) Now if we assume the average height of an Avatar is 6 ft tall.. you get at least an extra 3 feet or so in range.. (or half a Unity meter). Obviously right now attack ranges don't feel realistic at all.

I will play around with attack angles. I remember reading about that but had completely forgotten and there's no indicator in-game where your cone of attack actually is. Might I suggest a toggle to give us an optional indicator for this? It would be a good tool to become accustomed to it and we can turn it off once we are.

 

Really hope we can avoid the barbaric units and stick to meter.

So length of your weapon + your reach (25% of height?) + some size factor for the target would need to reach the centre of the target?

 

The indicator was attempted at the last minute going into R20. But it was broken and I don't know how much or if any work has gone into making it work the way it was intended. What was supposed to happen is the mobs inside the cone, ie. In range to be attacked, were supposed to pulse. With some of the mobs you can see that, but only if you look closely. If a mob gets targeted by you, the targeting effect overrides the in cone of attack effect. At that point you can't tell if the mob is in range or not. That why when I'm in doubt, I make sure I'm my own target by using F1 to select myself.

As an aside, I noticed that there are sound effects that indicate if you've swung and the mob is in range or not. I know there is one for blades, and I'm pretty sure there one for bludgeons. Those are the only melee weapons I've used so far. (If I remember the in range hit sounds like a thump and the in range miss sounds like a swish. Maybe that's just a coincidence.)

 

That's pretty annoying since I'm in the habit of always targeting the mob I'm trying to kill. I like having their health bar singled out.

 

With you all the way. I'm really not a fan of the free attack (I am a fan of the power swings though).

Luckily I play mage

 

Melee range is definetly a huge issue. I think they forgot to add realistic range to the mobs, those wolves and bears sure can bite from pretty far lol. While it is annoying to constantly reposition yourself as the mob continually backs away from you or realize your character isnt facing the right way for the mob you have selected....as long as you try to start the fight standing on top of its face you generally end up ok. Im not a fan of this center either, no reason the bears face shouldnt be a perfectly valid target. I started as 1h bludgeon and shield then switched to 2h bludgeon. While there is still range issues they are slightly better with a 2h it seems. Shield atm is just horrible, it really decreases your dps by alot and doesnt give you much survivabilty. Dropping it was the best thing I have done and freed up alot of skill points to boot. So I would def either recommend 2h or dual weild at this point. All in all with 2h bludgeon, as long as I keep an eye on my positioning....I really kick some butt though. Glad to hear the range issues will be resolved with the next update.

 

What is this "free-attack" and "charging up" hits or whatever that people are talking about?!
I can't find any documentation on this or options within the game.

Dual-wielding spears is fun

 

go into your game options and turn off autoattack. how long you hold the mouse controls the charge.

 

I'm not sure exactly where melee ranges for various weapons are currently set, but suggest consideration that for most weapons (including swords) the most damaging part is the tip; so ranges for say a two-handed sword with say a 45+" blade should be quite a bit greater than for a dagger, or a shortsword with say a 20" blade. As for the general issue of melee range seeming to short for avatars and too long for bears and such, I expect changing the point of contact from center to edge of target should make quite a difference? But not sure why AI skellies bears etc. have the reach they do.

Anyway, very much looking forward to getting a test at R21... Each release seems more exciting lately, good work!

 

Good points, another issue with two-handed weapons in general is observed with "crafted" or magic bonuses for weapons; at present, crafted 2-handers are inferior since you only get the "crafted/magic" bonuses once instead of twice which you would get from two one-handed weapons/shields/etc. Another game with similar issue ended up doubling enchant/etc. bonuses for two-handers, perhaps that should be done here as well?

As for two-handers lacking the extra glyphs/skills you can get from say sword and shield combo or dual wielding, perhaps new passives or glyphs could be added for two-handers. Something like a half-swording strike with perhaps shorter range but armour piercing ability (use of two handed sword in a spear-like fashion, "choking up" on the ricasso/blade area just above the hilt for a more powerful, armour-punching thrust, for example?). On the other hand, the two-hander does have greater damage than a single one-hander to begin with, but still it would add to the "fun factor" if two handers had some extra glyphs (ideally chosen to fit well with realistic differences between two handers and one handers) or such so that one-handers do not have all the fun

 

I use the same weapon as you, and use Body Slam (to charge from a distance) followed by Knockdown (to knockdown opponent on impact). I also use Earthquake if there are multiple enemies. I use chain mail (still counts as heavy armour) to reduce the chance of fizzle with Earthquake. I also throw in Defensive Stance, Inner Strength and of course Healing Touch and Healing Ray (which I use on my bear). I got to level 70 using that.

 

I'm an R20 baby, so I can't compare with previous releases, but neither am I limited by experience with previous releases. I've been doing the "Melee Spell Caster" mode, with basically the starting armor (only a slight upgrade to body armor, probably insignificant) double-wield swords (so I wouldn't have to buy a good shield), using the starter icons plus Healing Ray instead of Gust, and all icons locked. (I added Immolation yesterday though, it's very fun.) I didn't even figure out skill upgrades until level 20! And strictly in Novia until yesterday!

The first thing I learned is if you're solo, you need to be able to fight just one or two enemies at a time. Three is right out. You can't be too proud, just run away when you get outnumbered, then wander around looking for lone targets. And at almost any level, five or six enemies at once (without some kind of area-of-effect damage to kill them quickly, which I haven't had) is a good way to die.

The melee range thing? I noticed that early on when fighting slimes in Ardoris sewers. So I simply pushed them into the wall where I could fight them without moving. It's basically a balance between being in range and keeping up stillness. I consider it a bit of a challenge to maneuver the enemy to where it can't slowly slide away as I fight it. (wall, tree, etc.) The most annoying thing has to be how archers and mages run away like a little girl, but at least they're squishy when they stop running.

And when you aren't getting enough exp? Go to another area where wolves and bears give 800xp and are spaced far enough that you can fight singles. 800xp goes a long way even at level 30. I even reached a point where while I was trying to gather crafting materials, I was leveling in a couple of hours just from killing the local nuisances that kept popping up while trying to harvest stuff.

So some basic rules I learned:
* avoid fighting solo vs multiple enemies
* keep trying other areas to find appropriate (and higher exp) enemies for your level
* focus and hit points and innates are generally more useful than a bunch of skill icons because you're using them all the time, not just when they pop up in your "deck"

 

Absolutely. I'm there swinging and missing with a long sword while some Thug is doing damage to me, when I eventually get in range long enough to kill him it turns out he's equipped with a rusty dagger (and, apparently, very long arms).