Decay: Worst Mechanic Ever

Nay, it's a burden to have to raise the same set of basic skills again and again. Mage, bard, tamer, healer...in UO all of them need many common skills, each role need another character. What's my UO character's name today? Joe, Henry, Peter? Don't know anymore! That's not an RP, not even a FPS, just some kind of vomit.

On SotA we have both more freedom and some clever catchs against macroing, example, we can run off our reserve of XP. It happens to me, the yellow bar reached zero and the skills didn't go up. Nice anti cheat stuff. I sincerely hope this game will be fun for all.

 

Make also sure you visit the right Spot to get EXP, fighting lower monsters make you loose EXP.
Its ok not earning for those fights, but loosing? I can't visit nice places anymore because it costs my EXP when I kill monsters which for sure start attacking me ( and I need to kill them). Not a good point for RP or visiting nice made places just for fun.

 

In my logic of decay, the decay rate has to be tweaked so that a casual player could hold 3 crafting skills ~95.
The GM makers mark should be special and not standard.
Success Rate for high end items should never be 100%.
True, Powergamer will have more skills at this level, but never all skills and they have to choose.

Edit:
I vote for an option to disable decay for SP OFFLINE.

 

Hi all,
I am the person that had the problem from the original post. My reason for not posting before now in this thread is because of work and life related such keeping me occupied.
The situation needs a quick update, and then I'll give my opinion (also, these things might have come up before now in this thread, but I literally don't have time to read all 13 pages of this thread).

The update: So I decided to keep smelting ingots to see what would happen. I smelted all of my guild's available ore (around 200 or so, for about 50 ingots) but I also have a friend named Cunning Stranger (who I'm sure some of you know), who allowed me to smelt all the ore he had (he had gotten them from chests and such, he wasn't a crafter). The end result: After about 500 INGOTS worth of ore, I finally have seen some increase to my skill. What this means is that my skill was SO far in the negative that it took almost 500 ingots for it to become positive again.

My opinion on the matter: There isn't anything wrong with a decay system per-say (even UO had one in place) but there are two major changes that need to happen (aside from the obvious bug of a skill going into the negative): First, skills should not decay when logged out. Skills decaying when logged in and playing makes sense. I mean, if you play for twenty hours and don't even hit an enemy with your sword, then your sword should start decaying. But a skill decaying when logged out is discouraging to players like myself who don't have time to be able to play a lot. I play as much as I can, but I have work, real life things, friends, etc... So if I know my skills are going to go down every time I stay logged out, I might not even bother raising skills.
Second: As a continuation of the first, skills shouldn't start decaying right away and there should be "safe" spots where the decay timer won't function (such as Towns). One of the biggest complaints I've heard from people is that they want to be able to sit and town to enjoy the company of others, but every time they do they run the risk of losing their precious skills. So if there was a delay before skills started to decay (to allow players with worse computers to reach their destinations) and the decay timer was stopped while in town, it would allow people to enjoy all aspects of the game. It would not force them to choose whether to only focus on adventuring OR be able to enjoy time spent in town.

The original reason (from UO) for the decay system was not to punish players for not playing a lot, but rather to stop players from being able to GM literally every skill in the game (or legendary I believe it was called). The idea being that if you had been purely a magic user to that point and then spent a few weeks focusing only on melee, your magic skill would go down. By doing this, it allowed players the freedom to modify their builds without creating multiple characters, but it avoided characters being "amazing at everything". A decay system can work, but improvements need to be made.

Thanks for taking the time to read this,
JeffGo (Aka: Scarlet Rose)

 

Just a bit of appreciation for all Chris' hard work on this. I support the concept, mainly to 1) avoid hard caps, which I hate because they have an "okay development all finished, I'm done here" feel, and 2) I appreciate that there is always something to work towards - even if it is staving off decay or recovering from it. I've a reasonable amount of faith in the fine tuning of this system by release, especially with Chris' continued attention to details and responses to posts on the subject which are appreciated. When those not near the soft cap are perceiving a big slap from skill decay though, this does show room for that fine tuning and improvement so that it does not come across as a penalty to "casual" play. I've seen some good suggestions in this thread to help address the issue, as long as it is seen as a problem rather than ignored I expect it can be resolved. I remain in favour of soft caps over hard caps and appreciate development of this system.

 

I think we all appreciate @Chris 's work and he's always showed attention for the community. He really cares. As we do.
The fact that we're all here discussing the matter and trying to give him ideas is an index of how much we want this game to work.

I couldn't find that years old post discussing the concept of only a few players being able to attain grandmastery and non-grandmaster still being useful. I'm starting to suspect that I dreamt that.

Anyway, it has been mentioned / suggested that they limit decay to when we are online only. That still would not solve the issue I see with people performing otherwise unnecessary activities just to prevent their skills from decaying.
Also, suppose that on a particular day you can only log in for half an hour. You know that you will have to spend 20 minutes crafting stuff you don't need and fighting easy enemies just to keep your skills up. I would probably just not log in at all.
That actually discourages people from playing short sessions.

On the other hand, I totally understand the need of limiting progression to prevent unsurmountable disparity between new and old players.
I am talking about the MMO side of the game. If a new player has absolutely no way of being competitive in anything because 99% of the population is at an extremely high level and growing, said new player will probably find another game to play.

Still, Chris seemed concerned that putting hard caps would make players feel frustrated by a lack of progression when reaching the top.
But, isnt't it the same with decay? Chris himself said everyone will reach their own "soft cap" when decay will be so hard that they can't progress any more. Isn't that just as frustrating, if not more frustrating since you see your progress undone?

 

I think at the very top of the curve (which is where people are intended to feel decay truly limiting progression past a soft cap), it allows those seeking satisfaction of progression to have more to work for than a hard cap would, at least. The soft cap/decay system, in theory, should be similar to unlimited leveling systems in that it allows those who have the time/drive/desire/skills/etc. to "be at the top of the game" to distinguish themselves continuously from those who have less time/etc. Someone will less time/etc. may reach the soft cap, but will not stay as close to the limit as someone with more time/effort/whatever, so the person with "more" can maintain an advantage by working at it compared to those who otherwise reach the top but do not put in the same effort to stay there. The soft cap/decay, unlike a capless system, limits how far above the "normal" or even "casual" player that any other player can reach, so that there is more balance between the "best" and the rest.

In essence, it is this balance between allowing a character to always be better/stronger by "working" for something in the game, and limiting that same character from climbing limitlessly above others into some demi-god, that the decay system can potentially achieve. A hard-cap system, on the other hand, balances everyone out once they hit max, such that there is no progression at all beyond the max/cap point. With decay, you have a kind of progression, relative to where you would be if you did not keep pushing the envelope, and relative to those who have less time/effort/etc. invested. You have to work to "stay at the top" but there is incentive to do so.

With the decay system, progression actually is there if you look at it from a relative perspective - relative do letting your skills decay, you are stronger (and progressing) by working at progress. That is the best I can frame the starkest "positive" difference between soft cap decay vs. hard cap. On the other hand, with hard cap you can get maxed out and relax, which will be preferable to some compared to the kind of limitless relative progression of the decay/softcap system. Repeating from previous posts though, the soft-cap needs to work such that decay does not appear to slap away progress of those far from the higher end, but we are here to test that and hopefully help Chris & co. make the best of the system.

 

Hey i am not boo'ing Chris, i am boo'ing skill decay. Was thinking "what can i get Chris for his birthday.. I know! a decay thread!.. he will love that!"

 

Oops sorry if I seemed to imply that! I think you are secretly Chris' hero , and without feedback (and you have given so much!) we might as well not be in these forums. I agree with Fox Cunning that we all who are bothering to post here appreciate Chris, and this thread importantly points out what people are experiencing in the system and feeling about it so that it can be fine tuned to do what is actually intended, or even scrapped if necessary - although I'm not for that last bit, at least not at this point. Just in case there is any doubt, three cheers for Themo Lock too! I appreciate what you are doing here too (and all that work from combat scrum, researching crafting & sharing feedback, etc etc.

 

Within system mechanics (discounting equipment builds, of course), maybe not - although there's clearly a lot of people in many games who enjoy working out templates within skill caps to get performance balances that suit them- but we shouldn't forget the 'progression' that comes from learning how best to play your chosen skillset, and how well your team or group coordinates what they are doing. I'm not even slightly competitive, but can see that if you are, you may feel aggrieved if the only way to stay at the top of the skills part of the equation is to log in to do stuff you are not that concerned about, just to keep your overall level of 'performance' right at the peak, as well as hone your skills as a player/team member. The upcoming uses of terrain for cover and shielding, for example, will quite probably be more important than small differences in skill level in many situations.

 

We need decay and decay need you !

+1 to decay.

 

You know PVP'ers get affected by decay the most right?

 

This is what we need:

 

Good post. I think we're faced with gaming saturation as well. It's a struggle for some of the folks I've played with in the past to stick with one game. Some folks will play the game for awhile and decide they 'win' the game for whatever reason, then move on to the next game. Or there are parts of the game they just don't like..and they move on. Or they run out of content and move on. They hop from game to game. Then some folks might login a few months later because something new happened in the game, then they're gone again. It's frustrating for me because I'll typically settle on one or two games that I play but most of the folks I'd started with as a guild (in the past) have moved on to other games. I know not all players are like this but yeah...it's out there.

With offline skill gain and some interesting hooks we might be able to lure players back that might have normally given up on the game. It might also be a way for players to manage their characters using mobile apps?

 

you kids with your mobile apps and your walk man radio *shakes walker*

 

Hmm. A free dungeon crawler app that generates XP that is added to your main game adventurer pool, perhaps? Maybe a giant dungeon maze with traps, ghosts etc. that you can play on the toilet. That might ease the pain for casual players somewhat while keeping them engaged and giving them a reason to come back.

Maybe it could be a PVP app where everyone is at the same level, and the first one to reach the treasure room gets a reward that appears in their account in the main game - gold maybe?

 

Offline skill gaining is perfect when you want players to keep paying their subscriptions. The "cap" there is money. It works wonderfully in EVE Online I've heard.

But suppose there is no cap, no subscription, and skills always go up from the moment an account is created.
Then, you create your account a year after the game has been launched. Hardly anyone will be interested in grouping with you, or buying stuff from your crafter, ever.
You would be basically limited to a single player experience.

 

I'm not sure if my personal play style is common or rare. Basically I will grind if the game allows it and I can gain an advantage in the game. I however very much enjoy the social aspects in game and like to rp and join in on in game events whenever possible. The huge problem I have with this current system is that if it benefits me to grind over social, I will choose grind. Every time. It's not in my brain to be social, if it hurts my skills or progression. Therfore I'm very worried I will be constantly chasing the Themo type of player and never truly enjoy the game. If a lot of people are like this, than I think the current system may be a problem. If not and I'm on my own with this style of thinking I guess I'll just have to start going to therapy so that I can figure out how to enjoy the game.

 

I'm not entirely sure a very (and I mean - very!) steep curve after or slightly before GM wouldn't accomplish the same goal, without the "robbing feeling" and "game as job" part.

 

I don't see a point in decay. I hate it. It devalues the time I spent getting my skills up to a high level. So what if I have 100 high level skills I earned it fair and square. There are so many other things that I want to do than jam on skills all the time. Running a player community is time consuming. Music, writing, role playing. Move on to the next great thing that comes out in the game, dev created or player created.

I work a real job. I am gone a month, then home a month. To come home and get whacked for being gone a bit does not encourage me to want to stick around.
Makes me think I need to do a serious reconsider of the 50k I have tied up in this game. It should not be this way...