Why Ultima 7 was the high point of RPGs and not even SotA comes close

The reason SOTA divides the game into instances is for the very reason that the multiverse can exist. The entire selling point is playing by yourself or coop or compete with others within those scenes. It is instancing that makes it the same difficulty as programming a coop multiplayer RPG because within the scope of that instance there is literally no difference. The difficulty of doing writing for that scene or simulated behaviors for that scene is certainly not more difficult because this is an MMO. The only difference is that an MMO needs to have a server capable of hosting all of those cooperative RPG scenes, rather than allowing players to host their own scene. The writers and animators job does not change just because it is an MMO vs. MP.

If the MMO was an actual open world with one instance then there is a problem, but most MMOs are closed instance worlds with phasing specifically to avoid the problems of writing and simulation being a multiverse of switches. So if there is a sawmill NPC like in Skyrim, only you would see them working the load of lumber you gave them. Only the guy that killed the sawmill NPC would see them bleeding out and not cutting your lumber.

Arguing that phasing is the domain of expensive MMOS like ESO is not true for this phasing already exists and is in use in SOTA. It is how the SOTA Bridge scene even functions so you can see the buildings burning vs. burnt. So drop the arguments that it is not possible in SOTA because of lack of funding.

 

When I first read of SOTA, and learned Tracy Hickman was involved.. I figured he'd be involved in the quests, which would have made the game amazing, even in it's early stages.. but I guess all he will do for us is one novel (there are supposed to be 3??).

 

Funny you say that. It's exactly what we have. No quests really to speak of but we can go and gather lemons to make lemonade!

 

Lets stop and think about this. So the issue is not in part a lack of funding? So if they had 20 million more $$ and could hire 10 more people just on story alone for an entire year, stories including more phasing wouldn't be better???

Im not sure how you can rationalize this argument being correct in any way.

 

Huh?
Check out the blog posts from Tracy or the hangouts he has participated in.

He was a part of this project and he will be again. But it was never announced that he would be solely doing this and nothing else.

The book series is to coincide with the release of the game episodes. So next novel will introduce some other continent and then let us visit that in the game. Thus both the game and book can benefit by the other's marketing etc. Quite common and SOP.
Check out the announcement when they got the book deal.

He was involved in the major story arcs and the twists. That means he was also pitching story ideas for the complete arc of e1-e5 even though those are open to change.
He was very much part of pitching for how the world would be, or rather the backstory of the world more than its current state.

So once we close in on e2 then he will be back pitching ideas etc and writing that next book etc.

 

Check out dwarf fortress.
Now that's a game with npc scheduling down to a science!

If only we couldn't integrate dwarf fortresses scheduling into sota

 

Heh, they could make framerate inversely proportional to adv level for the true DF experience.

 

You are a rock. No matter if I or anyone else agrees with you, I've always respected the fact that you have never worn down even with the ocean crashing millions of times down on your opinion, "which for the most part thoughout all the time I've read your posts, has always had relevance. Viva La' U7 Indeed!

That is so true.

Another @Rufus D`Asperdi truth!

When I bought into SC, my Constellation was very nice, shiny and new, perfect for what it was suppose to be. Then they spent even more development $ on it, "just to make it look space worn and dirty"! I have no idea what SC will ever settle on, in anything being, any form of finished product or design. I would have done much better with having invested in actual Bit Coin production, than to have invested as I have with SC, because I think we may see the Bit Coin in my pocket first.

Again... "he's a rock and I admire him for it!"

We may still see more "in the spirit" of this as time moves on.

Until the argument wears to some kind of conclusion, it stands as an anthem, "it isn't finished yet", and what we have, is truly the makings of good lemonade, just waiting for the sugar to be added.
If I had a product which hadn't been released yet, I'd be withholding some content, and the best content I'd see as being most valuable to withhold, would be the things that most bind everything together, which we may see as missing from our current game's releases.

As I see it, Portalarium's problems with being somewhat behind in writing all it's quest content, is not so much a matter of hiring more people, it's more of a matter of hiring "more", talented people. The names of Portalarium's Founding Staff read like a who's who, been who and made a success of what, "who's who list of the greatest gaming developers of all time". It's not easy to find new talent that can match that, so Portalarium has made good choices, of who could learn from and aide the master works, from the masters... in order to accomplish the master's visions.

Story telling and quest writing have very similar qualities, but also have a far separate talent involved.
In short; The great actor may portray a great soldier and follow the script as if he himself contained the wisdom and talent of the soldier, yet will never accomplish becoming the soldier, neither in the soldier's wisdom or in deed, "yet he may always be a great actor". Therein, great story writing and great quest writing my be seen a difference of quality.

~Time Lord~

 

Ah, I remember Laurel and Hardy aka Malloy and Owings - what a hilarious encounter this was Below is a snippet of my Ultima 7 notes. I fear it's funny only for the German readers

 

just started playing Morrowind GOTY Edition from GOG.com and it kinda reminded me of Shroud of the Avatar... specially the keyword chat... unfortunately, I'm not used to playing single player games so I forgot to save and died... going to restart again... LOL...

 

@Lord_Darkmoon you are a veritable cultural meme of this community at this point. It simply would not be the same forums without you. Your passion and persistence are admirable, as is your consistency. In fact, I think youve expressed enough content here to create a "Darkmoon Ipsum generator" (R rated language warning on that last link...).

I agree that Ultima 7 is the standard by which all RPGs can be compared, and to which most fail. I still passionately love cRPGs, but am also still waiting around for a game to be better than U7.

Yah, this really brought back memories. I played a different role each time I played U7, one was a baker in britain. It blew my mind that I could just click on random ingredients and bake all kinds of things, and this had no real bearing or relation to the central game content. It was just representative of how robust and detailed the world was. Even the breadbaking in U7 led to a lot of missed expectations when I played later generation RPGs - I still have this urge to click on and explore every little pixel in games and then :-( when everything is just static graphics...

I thought morrowind came pretty close. Still think U7 was a better game though.


As for the rest of your post - I think some faith and optimism will help! Their small team is taking on a behemoth of a task. Its the same folks who made the game(s) you love, and I am gambling that their intentions are to bring back all the experiences youre missing nowadays. I think its just first necessary to establish a firm foundation in terms of really baseline game mechanics, and then a year or two into post-release development, a game world with robustness and detail comparable to U7. Thats the vibe I get after watching pretty much all the post mortems, hangouts, and telethons. Each month will be an iteration on the prior, and how deep the sub systems in the game get is really going to be determined by our feedback.

I know youve been around at least as long as me, so you remember what releases were like a year or two ago. In the last few months, Ive been pretty stoked about how much content is released and the pace at which the game evolves. The last 2 releases both surprised me with how the graphics and item content has changed (btw has anyone tried looting dead corpses near watchers lately? they got chainmail on em now!). Its a sign of good things to come. I agree that it is taking longer than I would prefer, but I think it is also taking as long as it needs to. I predict even Lord Darkmoon will be satisfied, if not impressed. I think it will be a monumental day, when the dev team finally pwns Lord Darkmoon for 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 exp, but in this way, everyone wins .

 

But NO that is not possible it takes millions of dollars of funding!

 

Not a problem in SOTA because of it's hex-based instance design. This is only a problem in DF because the entire world is being simulated, there is no instance division to make the number of NPC/PC in a scene manageable.

 

hehehe

Its funny cause i find the longer i sit around waiting for more to do then grind in sota, the more i agree with him though.

And i say that loosely, i think some of his points are exaggerated, i think a lot of his ideas behind what he expected and what we got are partially his fault.

But the reality is, SOTA forums is quickly loosing the people motivated/invested enough to keep bringing up the shortcomings of what was promised. Just take a look at the last 30 days of posts for example, over the previous 30. There are some very very real names that were around for a long time, that simply dont even try anymore.

So even though its like copy and paste, i hope @Lord_Darkmoon keeps pushing and bringing up the short comings of the story/quests aspects in SOTA, as i feel someone needs to. And frankly, hes not wrong in the sheer point that the quests/story up to now is weak. I dont know enough (or care really) about the reasons for this on the development side, but i would think that having a base already written, and scenes *completed*, getting some filler stuff would be easy. And honestly, whats implemented has been completly under whelming. So while a lot of people still have confidence they will deliver * EVENTUALLLLYY! * I think he has every right to repost as often as he wants, about how these basic/promised things arn't delivered yet, nor is he seeing the progress he hoped to see on it. Which is compeltly fair.

I bring up PVP all the time only to be shrugged off by the devs. ( Announcment questions! - Any time stamp on when you can elaborate or incoporate anything related to the guild wars / PVP that you claimed would be in game? Such as castle capturing and keep taking as promised ? - Answer! - Soon *TM* ) Which.. if i was a higher level backer, would piss me off to no end. So for someone like dark moon who has invested a lot of money and time into the CORE concept of the game which was strongly advertised as a quest/story related game, especially with using Tracey hickman as a huge advertising peice.. Im surprised he doesnt blatently snap on these forums more often.

The last few releases have been decent, they feel full and incorporating some major stuff. That doesnt change the aspect that some core stuff is missing, and the timeframes on this stuff is all over the place.

 

I deeply feel your pain and this is why, along with many many many other reasons I won't be continuing to play SotA. R42 has absolutely ruined the entire game for me. I'm unable to play my character the way I want it. They keep steering the whole "avatar" bullshit and making it so you can't progress through game without being a jack of all trades and having every skill. I don't want that and it's killing me from the inside out. All my old farm spots are now unmanageable and I'm simple just disgusted with this game now. All that and everything you've said... sorry no longer fun for me. Bye.

 

Lol spot on! A free game like dwarf fortress must have made a deal with the devil

 

Personally I don't think of u7 as the pinnacle of RPGs, specifically because of the wonky combat. For me good combat is a 100% essential part of the game.

 

Did you just compare SotA to a text mode game that's been in development for 15 years?

 

Do you not understand that the sprites in dots sota off of a similar framework?
Go from point a to b?

Why does everyone rush to arms to defend sota' s mediocracy

 

I've played sota in vr many times, take a look here for my idea https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...on-view-in-sota-how-to-and-dev-request.90747/