The End of Selective Multiplayer?

So many changes came to Shroud of the Avatar today in Release 59. However, these ones quoted above are the biggest, as far as I am concerned. And they do concern me.

Let me explain my situation. I backed Shroud of the Avatar on the first day of its Kickstarter campaign, as it promised me two things that I really wanted in a game. First, the promise of a storytelling experience that hearkens back to the Ultima series. And two, the promise of Selective Multiplayer, which would allow my group of friends to move away from the MMOs that we had come to detest and play together without worrying about other players.

From the earliest releases, I got to play this game with my kids. I’d explore ruins and wilderness while cradling my toddler, with my older son watching eagerly as we took down bandits and spiders, defeated liches, and returned sashes to Owl’s Head. As they grew up, my older son wanted to join me in the adventures that I was playing with my brother and our friends. I was leery of this, because he doesn’t do well with confrontation and conflict (a form of social anxiety that tends to leave him shaking and angry, sometimes for hours following its onset). This was especially troubling because the Shardfalls and Ruins had just recently been changed to force players into multiplayer mode upon entry. But he agreed to avoid those and to remain in FPO so the only interaction he would have would be to our select group.

So for the last three years, he has had his own account. He only generally signs on while I’m playing as he isn’t great at combat, but likes to explore. Occasionally, he will jump on after school to visit the Oracle and check out vendors. Because he is in FPO mode, and no one knows his character name, this isn’t a big deal to me.

Last week, when we found out this change was coming, I reacted strongly both here in the forums and on social media. This is a core change that takes away one of the main reasons I am playing this game. I discussed it with my friends over the weekend (the two that still play, as the other three had already moved on after finding they did not care for some of the game mechanics). Both of them said they would not be playing multiplayer, as that was the reason they joined me. I’m also not willing to expose my son to open multiplayer until he is a bit better on his control; its improved over the last couple years, but probably won’t completely subside until after he’s done with puberty.

That makes seven accounts that I’ve purchased that will only ever be played offline. That leaves me alone in an open world that I’ve mostly avoided for years.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve played in multiplayer mode several times. I’ve attended community events. I’ve livestreamed the game for Extra Life. I've helped other players go through the core questlines, do side quests, grind experience, craft items. I've answered questions as a Hospitaler. But I don’t particularly like playing the game in those modes; it’s fun to attend an event, but it’s horrible to be interrupted with whispers about buying gold and have idiots dressed in garishly colored clothes jumping around in front of me performing annoying emotes while I try to do things in town.

On top of this, the Trial is now full Free-to-Play mode, allowing gold farmers and other RMT markets to flood into our game. With a global chat system, so they can spam continuously. Thankfully, it costs them two bucks (WOW!) to do that, and I can opt out of that channel completely. Thankfully, this change doesn’t mean we have to compete with kill stealers and insane trains of mobs through every scene.

So, as it was requested of me, I’m going to “give this a chance” and play the game this week. I hope that I can come back and say that I’m wrong, and I can continue to be part of this community. It’s been said many times, but this really is the best online game community I’ve ever had a chance to be a part of. I don’t want to give that up. But I’m very concerned about my future here.

Assuming this remains unlocked, I’ll update it with my progress. I guess you’ll all be able to see me as I make this journey…

 

Well said, thank you @Browncoat Jayson. All of your work on sotawiki is also well appreciated. To me, the kicker of this all is that the developers could have easily created "mixed" mode as another option, rather than forcing multiplayer on everyone. This would have addressed the general issue they're trying to handle as well as letting those who want FPO/SPO continue to do so.

 

I agree, @Mishikal, but I'm not going to get into a "how it should have been" here. I'm just going to describe my journey and how I feel, to provide feedback on these changes.

Since there have been a large number of changes in the NUE, I think I'll start a new character this evening. I've already got my Shroud on my main character, and I've kind of been missing the Outskirts anyway. My main is a full light-armor archer, and I enjoy the mobility, but I guess this is a chance to branch out. Swords and sorcery? Turtle? Spinning blades of death?

(Oh, on a related note since I've been accused of threatening to quit and not. I did cancel my subscription and won't be participating in any sales, so the only thing I havn't done is start selling off my items. Yet. Like I said, I've agreed to give it a chance.)

 

I too think that your points are articulate and well made. I was lucky enough to be on the VIP tour of Portalarium during the SOTACON this year and had a chance to speak personally with Starr and Chris about this topic. This is not an arbitrary decision meant to stir people up or even force people to play in multiplayer mode. I am of the understanding that only overworld map and cities are going to be forced multiplayer, the rest of the scenes (except those designated PVP a) are going to remain the same. The reasoning behind this decision is pretty solid in my opinion. It is all about the NEW PLAYER experience. This game has got to attract and retain NEW players in order to survive. Part of that experience is seeing the other players who are in the game and having an opportunity to interact with the community at large in these areas. If you are new to a game and running around for hours never seeing another player, that is not a good thing . If the new player accidentally puts himself in party mode and doesn’t understand the mechanics behind it, that can also be very bad. This decision will help with the overall improvement of initial experience for new players and hopefully improve the retention rate.

The truth of the matter is, that you have a very valid although highly uncommon set of circumstances that drive your motivation to stay completely isolated in this enormous and vibrant multiplayer game world. You are an individual and the decision is being made to benefit the whole of the game and the community. None of us want the alternative, which is the failure of the project and the end of the game. This is just a small part of the sweeping changes that are being made to bring in thousands of new players and improve the experience for all of us. I commend your willingness to "Give it a chance" and hope that you can reconcile these hard decisions with your circumstances and continue to be a member of this great game.

 

I suggest you read up on the problems with what they've done. They're reasoning was in fact not sound, and is problematic. See https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...se-59-instructions.145349/page-3#post-1173075 for example. There was a simple and elegant solution to the problem they were trying to solve, and they didn't go with it (https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/f...se-59-instructions.145349/page-3#post-1173104), to the detriment of the game.

In any case, @Browncoat Jayson has made it clear he doesn't want this thread to be yet another discussion (there's lots of existing threads already on the problems with how this was implemented) on the problems with what's happened, but a document of his journey in R59 with the unfortunate change.

 

I understand that there are strong feelings about this but I believe that, going forward, it was the right move. I say this because I know the first thing a new player sees in this online multiplayer game is an empty world. I also like private mode but I'm willing to give it a chance. It doesn't affect mobs and resources, which is the most important thing.

 

...for you. The grind is not the reason all of us are here.

I know WHY they made the change. I don't agree with their assessment; forcing everyone into multiplayer is going to make the game feel more full, but it comes with a lot of nasty side effects. Like usual, they jumped in with multiple changes, all designed to do the same thing, and overcompensated. Free-to-Play and Global Chat should have been enough. Adding an OPTION to switch would have been icing. Forcing it (and breaking another Kickstarter promise) was over the top, and not leaving any opt-out except "Play offline, newb" is what really puts me off. I didn't buy an MMO, dammit.

Thanks. We'll see when I get home from work. I'm getting more irritated the longer I read about this.

 

Stick with it mate, I hope it works out. They can always tweak or reverse engineer anything they mess up, given time and good feedback.

 

The current setup (Open on the Map and in Towns) doesn't bother me. I'm used to the idea via Path of Exile (Towns are open MP, Adventure areas are instanced to player/group). The only issues I really see with it are Global Chat (which is optional anyway) and possible competition for Encounters (which I think will be minimal anyway as last I recall most players opt to avoid them if possible anyway.

 

So I created a new character last night to run through the changes in the Isle of Storms and Solace Bridge, so I'd like to offer @DarkStarr and the devs some feedback on that portion of the game.

The new section on the Isle of Storms is... not great. Conceptually, I think its a fantastic idea; offer a tutorial on how to play the game by extending the Isle of Storms sequence. However, it fails to actually illustrate how to play the game. The steps are basically:

• Talk to Anias
• Jump over a pillar
• Talk to Anias
• Loot a sword
• Talk to Anias
• Kill a Watcher, loot a bow
• Talk to Anias
• Loot arrows, kill a Watcher
• Talk to Anias
• Equip a different deck, use a skill, get a staff (why is this not a training staff like the sword and bow?)
  
• Talk to Anias
  
• Either kill or talk to an Automaton
• Talk to Anias
• Enter the lunar rift

So this tells us that the game is about talking and combat. There is a single mention of virtue, which is framed as something that "the Oracle will like". This is NOT what you need to know in order to play the game.

I'd move the jump outside this section; perhaps a fallen log between the mirror and the confirmatory prompts you to jump over it. It has no place here.

Here are the things you should really be showing them, as they are what will trip players up later:

• Show the basics of tradeskills
  • Anias gives the player an pick and mine a fools gold ore
  • Anias gives the player a pair of tongs and they smelt the fools gold into an ingot
  • Anias gives the player a hammer and they smith the ingot into coins (use for the coin stamp mold)
  • Then he will give the player the rest of the starting tools (otherwise, why did you appear in this world with over a dozen tools?)
• Show the basics of important NPC interaction
  
  • Anias will sell the player a couple items (preferably for the coins you just forged)
  • Anias will offer to train you in a skill; having this unlock Fishing for free would be a good idea
  • Add a fetch quest portion where you have to turn in an item
• Show how to use the different game modes
  • Make sure Anias tells you how to go into combat mode, and warns you to exit before talking to him again
  • Add a segment where you need to move things out of the way using deco mode (but can't put them in your inventory); this would be a good use for the tech that we were going to get for taverns and games where you can move and interact but not take items
  • Has Anias say he is also an Avatar, and explain the Protection of the Oracle; add an option to speak to an Oracle head to turn on PvP combat, fight Anias, then turn it off and show how he cannot be attacked
  • The same Oracle head could give a virtue report, if asked; since you can get or lose virtue with the automata, this should be non-zero
• Finally, show combat
  • What you have with two different enemy types is fine, but add some special attacks; for instance, the first Watcher may have a blade attack, so prompting the player to use Riposte would be good
  • Two Watchers at the beginning would be good, as it can show that attacks can hit multiple opponents; then add the flying one and discuss line-of-sight, elevation changes, and autoattack vs free attack

I did get a few hangups in the task list; it will be great once the new Quest system gets put in. I ended up with two "Enter the lunar rift" entries and one "Speak with Anias" entry that didn't clear until I went through the final rift.

Then, I got to the new Battle of Solace Bridge. I'm not sure what the benefit of the changes here are, other than upgrading some of the visuals (which were already pretty good). The lunar rifts is now on the other side of the town than where the boat is, which makes sense, but you lost the incredible approach up the mountain to the circle of stones. If anything, I'd prefer the old scene but moving the boat to the other side near the Commons bridge. You also lose the ruins (which are replaced with a single gravestone), the meeting with the elf, the wolves and spiders. As far as I can tell, there are no new items or points of interest in the burning town, so no new functionality was added. Just change for the sake of change.

Finally, I got to Solace Bridge Outskirts. Ugh.

Forced multiplayer in adventure scenes is even more horrible than I expected. I played here for about 3 hours, and there was anywhere from 6 to about 18 people in my instance. Except when four of them all decided to go afk while attacking the training dummy, there were no resources. Completing any of the gather wood, ore, or cotton quests was not going to happen. Even fishing was down to <20% chance just about everywhere I tried. The bandits and wolves respawned fast enough that at least there were places to fight, but that was annoying. I was also challenged to two duels (before I turned off that option), but not a single player answered any questions I asked of them, or even bothered stopping to chat at all. I might as well have been in private mode, except then I wouldn't have had to deal with resource issues.

Loading in and out of the Outskirts took a long time before, likely because they are huge scenes, but now I could go make a sandwich and come back. Like 4 minutes to get into Solace Outskirts. Sure, my system isn't top end, but I've never felt like I needed an SSD or 24GB of RAM to do anything, but I'm considering it now.

Seriously, you can change the Outskirts back to being standard adventure scenes now. New players will still be in multiplayer mode; you can even force this until they get to the Outskirts. But playing in an adventure scene with a large number of others is not sustainable.

Just for completeness, I created a second chat tab and turned on Universal chat. It was about what I'd expect. I'm glad to see that some players were using it to ask questions and get reasonable answers. However, it was full of inane conversation, rants, and politics, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid when I play games. I didn't run into a lot of trade spam, but it is the first day so I expect that will change. I turned it off, and likely will never touch it again.

To end on a positive note, the quests through the intro are nice to get players up to speed. I hit 100k xp in my pool on the new character, and still have several quests left in the Outskirts to finish.

I'm not sold on any of the changes yet. I'm giving it a week, and I'll be jumping back and forth between these characters to get different perspectives.

 

Really not a fan of forced multiplayer. I was a very early backer, when we were being assured the game would NOT be an MMO (yeah, that lasted a whole minute.) I tried playing multiplayer only twice, just to give it a try and I know this community is pretty cool, especially when compared to other multiplayer games. But I still lasted only 10 minutes each time, had terrible experiences and I just don't like it. I put a lot more money into the game over the years we were still being told we only had to deal with other players we chose. My friends and I love playing together, but after years of games pushing multiplayer, we have no patience left for being bothered by randos. "Be approached by creep, say go away, get insulted, report, block," is definitely my least favorite mini-game. I'm a person who hates to complain and tries to give things a chance, but this is a really big turn-off for me and all of the people I convinced to buy the game. I guess I'm not making any friends with this post, but maybe that's for the best, lol. If you see me in game, I'm that cranky old viking lady *shakes fist* and stay off my lawn!

 

I feel your pain not because of the change to a more open world. For every person like yourself who feels cheated with this change I know a person or two who left because the world isnot open enough.

I really enjoy this game and it's community despite game play I am not always happy about. I always worried from the start that trying to create a game for everyone's tatse from solo offline, solo online, party online, and open development was going to be hard to pull off well. Had we started with solo offline and multiplayer we could of added solo online and party online once there was a good size player base. If you have 20,000 users onljne it is easier to add those other online options and not have a world that seems void. But hind sight is 20/20.

 

I love the depth and attention you put into this. Thank you sir as always! I'm guessing the resource contention for popular scenes is especially concerning to those of you that depend on it for your game play.

Unfortunately, you would lose me as a player at requiring crafting for the new user experience. I imaging the same could be true for the combat parts for those the only want to craft. Perhaps there is a way to structure this to give players choice?

As it is now, i suspect the design goal is to give the player an absolute minimum and yet necessary introduction. I know from experience that the longer or more complicated an initial experience is the more people drop off, most often to never try again. The curve is scary, exponential in most cases i've measured.

Which brings up a crucial point. Please please please, measure (continue that is -- i know the team does already -- but measure all the things -- propose->measure->learn). It helps to remove the pressure of ego and gives backing to decisions that can be communicated for all the crazy cool ideas our community and the team come up with.

 

@jschoice You make a really good point. And I had similar worries, that trying too hard to please everyone would inevitably please no one. But I don't follow that the option for selective multiplayer creates a less "open" world. The world is just as open. And if "open" necessarily means "other players," nothing would prevent a new player from choosing it. Or even having it as a default, but being able to choose otherwise later. And this was such a basic aspect of the original vision, I'm still surprised it's so casually abandoned. And MMOs are soooo tired. Are they sacrificing longevity for short-term new player flirtation? Maybe not. But it still feels like a betrayal and a sell-out. Words I do not use lightly.

 

Thanks!

This entire section of the tutorial is optional, so you don't lose anything if you skip it. The problem is that players are intimidated by deep systems, like crafting and decorating, so don't even try. Having a single harvest/refine/craft cycle, and a single rearrange-object cycle, should be enough to give everyone a taste of how it is done, without overwhelming them. These processes are just not described enough in the game to make them appealing to the masses.

What they added this release is just almost entirely unnecessary clutter. The ONLY saving grace is the addition of the three default decks and a small amount of combat experience. But it doesn't go deep enough to explain the system.

 

Meh. Forums. When will i learn? So resource contention is less of an issue than i thought. I just logged in and (as others pointed out in various ways) while towns are multiplayer both quest adventure areas and tiered adventure areas can still be entered in private or party mode. I'm not sure about the starting areas though. I will check that later today.

 

The overworld, all towns, and the three Outskirts are all forced multiplayer. I think the Lost Vale was originally forced multi as well, but was apparently changed.

 

Lost Vale has a 16-player instance limit in any case because it's an adventuring scene.

 

A tutorial should teach you how to move, draw and sheath a weapon, engage an enemy, talk to an npc. That is all, just the basics of how to survive the first hours of the game. Beyond that all can be learned at your leasure and ignored if not your play style.

Any more than this is unnecessary and frustrating for new players who just want to get into the game and now that it's free to play, makes it more likely that they get bored and back out never to pick it up again.

In my experience Crafters always learn how to craft. The more complex and impenetrable it seems, the more they like it. With the new chat systems they can ask questions. A few more npcs with step by step crafting quests like the Tailor in Saltown would be nice however.

As for global chat, I've been in it constantly since launch and I've never encountered innane drivel or politics. The SOTA player base, it would seem is currently at least, a cut above the normal mmo crowd. Yes there's a sprinkling of fun and banter, but generally the content discussion and help and sharing of information is exceptional.

I'm a little uncomfortable with the statement that the SOTA community in tbe Uni chat spouts innane, political, drivel. Based on my own experience it is absolutely not, unless this happens whilst I'm abed (I'm from the UK). This is a little insulting and sounds more like someone justifying their own expectations to me.

With free to play it is however almost inevitable that the Uni chat will get worse. That's no big deal, I'll just turn it off and lobby for a $5 Crafter or Merchant Orb and beat the drum for a Hospitaller player assistance channel or something similar, plus stronger Moderation.

 

And the crafting "tutorial" is already in the Outskirts zones anyhow, isn't it?

I think it's because it's a niche game, and we've had a small core for so long. It's like being a lost tribe or on a deserted island or something. Hopefully the spirit will spread with new players.