Truth

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sea Bear, Aug 31, 2019.

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  1. Sea Bear

    Sea Bear Avatar

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    An unfriendly person pursues selfish ends and against all sound judgment starts quarrels.

    The words of the mouth are deep waters, but the fountain of wisdom is a rushing stream.

    The mouths of fools are their undoing, and their lips are a snare to their very lives.

    Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good,
    to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.
     
  2. Titania Xylia

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    I remember the first time I tried mescalin.
     
  3. CarlNZ

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    Sounds like some terrible advice mixed with some good advice.
     
  4. Alleine Dragonfyre

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    Obedient? No.
     
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  5. Cordelayne

    Cordelayne Bug Hunter

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    Lies told as truth
    how disturbing,
    I am now awakened!
     
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  6. Heradite

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    Man if George Washington and the other founding fathers followed this advice, we wouldn't have America.
     
  7. redfish

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    Yea, I was guessing a lot of people were going to have trouble with the "obedience" part, but it actually was a classical virtue.

    By that I don't only mean among Christians; for example, also in Ancient Greece; Socrates famously argues that one has a duty to "persuade or obey", before he accepts the judgment of the tribunal in Athens and dies by hemlock. Its also a part of Eastern culture, including Buddhism.

    It's not meant to mean blind obedience, though. In the religious sense, obedience is an extension of the virtue of humility. More than blind obedience, it is just against blind rebellion. In life we always have to obey circumstances that are beyond our control. We also have to obey things other than people, including nature, and including morals, reason, and wisdom. (A religious person would substitute here God). Authority means just and proper authority. And sometimes even in obeying people, we have to stand against them, because they ask for something contrary to your duty towards them.

    Nah, they actually believed in this.

    "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God." -- Thomas Jefferson

    The quotes are from the Bible, btw, if nobody figured it out. The founders were religious men (of some sort or another) and believed that obedience was a virtue, they just also believed that they had rights under the law that were being violated, and the government existed as a social contract, that when broken they no longer had a duty to. So they had an obedience to God to rebel from England. This is why they referenced the Creator in the Declaration of Independence and listed their grievances against the king. They all felt they had a moral duty to justify their actions.

    This was actually part of a tradition in English law. In the law, there was a legal distinction between "regicide" and "tyrannicide." If a king was a rightful and just ruler, his law was just, and going against him was High Treason. However, a sovereign was supposed to rule for his subjects, and if he suborned this duty to do that, he became a tyrant; at which point killing him was legally justified. Charles I was executed, and in the trial that determined his execution he was declared by the judge "public enemy of the people." Rulers also had an authority to answer to.

    The concept goes back to Ancient Athens, too, where alongside a belief in the virtue of obedience, there was an oath sworn (Psephism of Demophantus) by citizens of Athens that everyone had a duty to kill tyrants. Part of it read, "If anyone shall suppress the democracy at Athens or hold any public office after its suppression, he shall become a public enemy and be slain with impunity."
     
  8. Geaux

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    It may be hard to fit this on a dollar bill...
     
  9. Heradite

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    Thomas Jefferson also had his own religious ideas and worked on his own translation of the Bible. Not to mention that while some founders were religious, others weren't that religious. There's a reason it took them two tries to get a Constitution that actually worked well.
     
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  10. redfish

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    Different degrees and types of religiousness, yea. At any rate, religion was just part of the blood of the culture at that time, and I was only trying to make a point in regard to the topic... You can also look up quotes from other founders about obedience, it's a virtue they took seriously.

    In English law, aside from high treason, there was also an offense called petty treason (or petit treason), which was any betrayal of a superior by a subordinate.
     
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  11. evillego6

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    These are incredibly obtuse observations about translations. 'Plato once used a word that a personal later translated into obedience' is hardly valuable. That's completely ignoring the context in which Plato claimed Socrates used the term.
     
  12. redfish

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    By obtuse, you mean me? You'll encounter the "persuade or obey" characterization in any university-level Philosophy course you take on Ancient Greek philosophy. That's because in Plato's account, Socrates actually elaborates at length, saying you have the same duty to your country as you do to your parents as child, or your master if you were a slave, and explains you should obey the commands of your city or country; he also describes this as like refusing to obey the orders of a commander in war rather than be killed or be wounded, and he uses this as justification to refuse to flee.

    Aristotle also discusses the virtue of obedience. And you also see it come up in Spartan culture.
     
  13. Sol Stormlin

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    Just be real, be honest, don't be a jerk about anything, and enjoy life.
     
  14. Alleine Dragonfyre

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    [​IMG]

    And there is no god.
     
  15. evillego6

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    Thanks for the attempt at a lesson. I'm sufficiently versed in the matter and stand by my statements. Please don't let me keep you from patronizing the forum.
     
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  16. redfish

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    Dude, I responded to your comment. Replying back to you in a civil manner isn't being patronizing towards you, its treating with you with respect. If you wanted to explain that something I said was wrong, you had all the chance in the world to do so.
     
  17. Fionwyn Wyldemane

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    The definition of a troll. The definition of a despot. The definition of a bully.

    This reminds me of the danger of drinking from stagnant water. You can get parasites and worse. So it's best to think before you open your mouth so your words don't make others sick...unless you are a troll (then see item #1). My mom always taught me, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it." That's hard to do at times but, they are wise words. Like a rushing stream, heeding that kind of wisdom is both refreshing and less likely to cause harm to anyone you're speaking to.

    Sad but, true. Fools say things. Their lips move and sounds emanate outward, however, fools are not only nonsensical in what they say, they are a danger to themselves. I'll add, they are a danger to others as well. They believe their own hype, the spin, the manufactured reality they exist in and they want to others to come join them no matter what evidence there is to the contrary.

    Oh yeah, being obedient, to be subject to rulers and authorities is a real sticking point, especially when acts of civil disobedience against rulers who are fools and worse (see item #1) can mean freedom from oppression and tyranny. By the same token, all societies have rules and laws in place that can also mean the difference between freedom and enslavement. And all nations have had both good and bad leaders throughout history. It is the way of human nature. As for me, I can't be subject or obedient to someone who embodies the first three items.

    But someone who tries to do good, who slanders no one, who is peaceable and considerate of others and who is gentle? Well , that's horse of a different color.

    Thanks @Sea Bear for having the balls to put forth some interesting items for philosophical discussion.
     
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  18. Geaux

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    And wear cool socks...
     
  19. Sol Stormlin

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    Hell yes, for goodness sake! Clean ones!
     
  20. Boris Mondragon

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    Docking at your port soon
    *looks through his spyglass and eyes open wide"

    "Razulah: Pitch a tent there is a **** storm in progress".

    R/Boris/With Clean Socks on.
     
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