Sneak Scene

I got caught multiple times now and find it fun.

Feedback 1)
Yes, I know that Sannio already had explained the reasons in a forum post why he created the guards as Conversationalists that engage in conversation whenever a player enters the radius around them, regardless line of sight or stealth.

However the ingame description of the scene as a thieves training ground still sounds and ought to be a testing ground for skills like thieves Camouflage / Silent Movement, Moon Mages Vanish and Shadowform and Subterfuges "Distract" - it´s a cornerstone of adventures and fantasy to throw some stones to get the guards to look or walk the other way... So whenever it´s possible to do that in game I would love it.

Feedback 2)
The further one is through the warehouses the longer the way to backtrack.

The Compendium of Pain had a way to shortcut the long way back in case of failure - a sidetunnel that lead to the entance faster than backtracking through all the rooms. Would something similar be possible with the Thieves Guilds Warehouses to get back to the exit fast and easy once caught? Side tunnel? Opening teleport to the gatekeeper? Being teleported by the guard after they had their conversation?

Feedback 3) I don´t like invisible walls. When the walls between the ways in the warehouses should be unclimbable and not being jumpable to get a shortcut, then they should be almost as high as the ceiling. Currently it looks in several places as if one could jump over some crates or furniture to the other side.

 

If a "shortcut" back to the Overseer is too complicated to allow a player to leave quickly after being caught, then how about opening the exit?

e.g. when I sneaked through all 7 warehouses but get caught before I have the last iron coin and the exit to the overseer opens - currently I have to backtrack the whole way through 6 warehouses.
If the exit would open the overseer would be right there when I´m in the 7th warehouse.

 

Upon returning to Novia, I was instantly drawn to the new sneak scene. I had read the R121 release notes carefully:

"In some taverns, rumors are shared of a place where specialists in stealth hone their craft. Drunken whispers have overshared that those frequenting this “sneak scene” will claim avoiding combat is more important than direct confrontation. Some people might suggest this place is neutral ground, with both assassins and spies putting aside their differences in order to make use of these elaborate training facilities, but you didn’t hear it from me!"

It wasn't a lot to go on, but I thought I'd correctly interpreted it to mean this was the start of a new community gathering spot. A spot where PVP was impossible, and outlanders would collectively join forces in an effort to train in the arts of subterfuge! I read this as, "Finally there's a thieves guild in Shroud of the Avatar!"

I bought several scrolls of unlearning. I specialized in the sneakiest of skills. I went to the Sneak Scenes and asked every NPC I could where I could find a key to enter! No NPC's would help, and it only made my curiosity that much greater. I had to get into this "elaborate training facility" immediately.

But I dared not ask anyone about it. As I did not want to ruin the mystery behind this incredible new content that I had been waiting and longing for. (Oh, how special it would feel to be part of this new and exciting secret society!)

I quietly waited in anticipation. Googling "Where can I find the Sneak Scene Key in Shroud of the Avatar" sometimes 5 or 6 times a day! Asking Chat GPT, "How do you get a key for the Sneak Scene in Shroud of the Avatar?" But alas, all that modern AI could tell me was that the sneak scene was made for "specialists in stealth" and it had "elaborate training facilities". I couldn't wait!

Then R122 happened. And I learned that "Preview" actually meant the Sneak Scene wasn't finished, and there was no way to get into the "elaborate training facilities". Until now! Oh, I was so excited. I bought more scrolls of unlearning, and reapplied my adventure skill points accordingly. I was ready! I would finally be behind the gates building the character I've always wanted.

The R122 language was very clear:
"Barkeeps in port towns across New Britannia have made their basements available to all sorts of nefarious people who value the ability to come and go without notice. They might have a key, if you ask, to access a place where specialists in skulking hone their craft. Drunken whispers have overshared that those frequenting this ‘sneak scene’ will claim avoiding combat is more important than direct confrontation. Some people might suggest this place is neutral ground, with both assassins and spies putting aside their differences in order to make use of these elaborate training facilities. It might, perhaps, be wise to do any such training before partaking of the barkeeps’ wares, not after."

I had done my training! I had changed my specializations twice! I was ready, bring it on!

And ready I was, as I entered the Sneak Scene I carefully stealthing around from chest to chest, collecting coins and learning how best to avoid the guards. But wait, they were seeing me. I was getting caught all the time. How could this be? Stealth sucks.

I quickly gave up. I didn't like it. I was disappointed. But nonetheless, I decided I would give it another try after the monthly dev stream (that was starting in just a few minutes). And that is the first time that I learned the Sneak Scene had nothing to do with (combat) stealth, nothing to do with mystery (any NPC barkeep will just give you a key if you asked), nothing to do with thieves guilds, and nothing to do with much of anything. What a complete let down. I can still remember laughing at myself when I first heard that combat stealth had nothing to do with the Sneak Scene. What?! For realz?! LOL

Objectively, I can understand why the scene was made the way that it was. In an effort to save limited resources, no new technology could be used, and in an effort to keep the old technology (which was combat based) from ruining the sneak scene (players would just kill all the guards), no combat stealth could be used. But the end product is players running around staying away from guards with candles tied to their heads. And for what? I'm getting ahead of myself...

The scene was expertly designed. It plays well. It was good work.

Having said that, I can't help but give the following feedback: (at least I'm not alone in thinking this)
1. The Release Notes really leave a lot to desire and didn't help appropriately manage expectations of the Sneak Scenes. In fact, if anything this experience will probably make me second guess any future previews and announcements with a healthy grain of salt. What's that, you have a magic familiar system you're introducing? Oh, I'll bet it's just some reskinned pets. What's that, you have mounted combat coming to SOTA? I'll bet it's just two players on mounts locked adjacent to one another performing auto-combat. What's that, you have finally after 10 years created a climb the ladder mechanic? Oh, I'll bet it's just a VFX that makes a puff of smoke instead of actually showing a character climbing a ladder.

2. I think the reasoning and the explanation provided by Sannio during the livestream was excellent commentary. But I really think that should've all been captured in the release notes. That would've saved me from spending tons of COTO's working to redesign my character, and it would've helped appropriately set expectations, so my hopes and dreams would not be needlessly and unintentionally, destroyed. I'm not being overly dramatic here, this hurt (for all the right reasons, I'm passionate about the game you've made).

Returning to SOTA after many years I've been taken back by how deep and rewarding this game can be. There are many good examples of passionate and thoughtful development work that has gone into this game, and I consider the sneak scenes to align with those examples. However, there remains a monstrous void between real stealth mechanics what the sneak scenes are. There's also a huge, missed opportunity to build community beyond grinding for XP.

And for this, I'm going to paint a picture of an alternative to the sneak scene.

Years ago, I played a game called Gemstone 3. I was a great game, though insanely limited by today's standards.

For those not familiar with GS3, it's a text based MUD, and it still exists today!

It's a grind fest. It's a grind fest before EverQuest. That's all you really need to know.

But what's special about Gemstone III is that it has unique systems that help build community. Systems like the Council of Light.

The Council of Light is a secret society, it's not advertised in release notes. It's not spoon fed to players (although, it's of course on a wiki Council of Light - GemStone IV Wiki (play.net)). You just kind of stumble into it. The Council gives you powers. They're really good powers. You level in the Council of Light. Players are told not to speak about the Council of light. Those players that do, are punished. It's incredible.

There's mystery, there's intrigue, there's power. It helps create roleplaying opportunities - something that SOTA severely lacks, imo. Please consider this a "preview" of a topic that is very near and dear to me. One that I plan to address in the coming weeks and months. This game still has so much potential.

But as it pertains to the Sneak Scenes. It would've been so cool if there were a secrete thieves guild that wasn't advertised. A guild that brought players out of their basements, away from their crafting tables, off the air ship, and into a world where only those that knew the secretes, could have just an ounce of roleplaying in their lives. I'm not aware of anything remotely like that in SOTA. We need more of that. We need an excuse to roleplay.

 

After playing it for a while, there's one main problem I keep having. One of the guards will just stop moving for multiple seconds, usually while placed to block an important passage. I have a feeling he's just stopped working at all and might not detect me, but I can't overcome the instinct to avoid him.

I don't mind them suddenly backtracking, but camping the halls like that is just not fair.

There's also a few chests with only one way in, and the guard will go far enough that you can't hide in the back, but really I can consider those to just be difficult.

 

So anyhow, now that I've been playing it for a few weeks, I can confirm that some of the guards do indeed get "stuck". Often it's the same ones in the same places. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I think of it as that they've nodded off while on duty, and it's part of the game to notice that they're slacking off and you have to carefully pass around them.