SotA: Dual-Scale Map Reimagined (Video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFwjendP2IU

My scruffy weekend self put together a quick prototype presentation for a new take on Shroud of the Avatar's dual-scale map. Let me know what you think, and share your ideas!

 

@Dom John

Great video, great job, great ideas.

 

I love this idea! I hope someone points the devs at this video when the developer forums become available. If I don't see anyone bring this to their attention, I sure will!

 

I already liked the dual map, but I have to admit, your ideas take it to another level, fantastic job. I'm looking forward to the devs feeding back on this.

 

Looks great, I hope the Dev's see this video.

 

@Dom John, very cool ideas. I like the idea of getting rid of fog of war & instead having the map color itself in as you explore the different areas. I like the idea of my character pulling out my map as I go to view it. I agree with everything that you presented & I'm interested in your other ideas for the duel-scaled map.

 

A lot of cool ideas, although I don't think its necessary to make the zoomed out map look like cloth and pen -- you'd just have to give it map-like sense of scale with compact, dense cities; taller, denser forests; taller mountains, etc. Keep the realistic modeling, just change the proportions. Think of a map re-created in miniatures, using crafting materials you'd use for a diorama.

So, for instance, take what was done in Sid Meier's Railroads! the updated version of Railroad Tycoon, http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/article/741/741640/sid-meiers-railroads-20061024062838410.jpg

Cities and trees are not at a realistic scale -- its made to look like a model tabel-top playset.

There's a precedent for this in actual Medieval-era maps.

First, look at these shrunken scale Arab maps:

http://voynichimagery.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/map-egypt-delta-damietta-and-bolbetine-piri-reis-detail.jpg
http://voynichimagery.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/map-egypt-babelyon-fustat-cairo-detail-piri-reis.jpg
http://voynichimagery.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/map-piri-reis-rosetta-and-aboukir.jpg

Now look at these Medieval-era cityscapes, and imagine them in place of the cities in Railroads! :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Sebastian_munster_1550_speyer.jpeg
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/87682967-antique-map-of-medieval-town-in-east-germany-photos-com.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=6E22FB6E7F26C88172B97CA5C194CA6DB0B03B7B9936B8C5D1A8D2C938CAEC43E30A760B0D811297
http://www.historic-maps.de/stadtansichten-panoramen/stadtansichten-1490/deutschland/galerie/images/770%20Nuernberg%201490.jpg
http://www.krakow-info.com/Kaz-Krak.jpg
http://i539.photobucket.com/albums/ff355/williamofwaco/Goerlitz_1575.jpg

And with the landscape having the same realistic feeling as in Medieval II: Total War in this shot:
http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/12/11923/thumb_620x2000/305b90a04997.jpg

And remember, of course, Darklands:
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070411/Darklands.jpg

 

I'm still very much torn on the dual-scale map system, as I feel it *does* kill immersion. But if they go with it (which they of course will), I'd rather they move towards the approach outlined in this video.
Very good work indeed.

 

Here are some better examples of cityscapes, more zoomed out, in the same quality as the first one (from wikimedia) on the list:

http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/switzerland/baden/maps/braun_hogenberg_II_36_4_b.jpg
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/germany/trier/maps/munster_lat_1550_trier_b.jpg

These also served as maps, as you can see from the labeling.

 

Very cool! I'm still against the whole dual-scale stuff and would prefer an open world like UO where I can wander and get lost and interact with every nook and cranny. I love your revamp of the current idea, but I still DO feel like the world will feel cramped and small traveling around like that.

 

Dom John / Dan Span For The Win!

 

*Dans Pan sorry hah

 

+1

I love this idea...great work

 

Wow, yes love the idea, great presentation and ideas. The table top look is a very neat idea in addition to the relevance of the cloth. The only down side being that the world looks rather small and would hope that the map be much much larger at launch. Great job

 

I love the idea of having an in-world explanation for the overworld map view (zooming into an actual map held by your character). Without something like this, the system would feel very "gamey" and detrimental to the sandbox-style world simulation they're clearly aiming for.

I'd still prefer seamless exploration without area transitions and a forced overworld view, but if we *must* have an overworld map, Dom's idea is preferable to simply yanking us into it with no explanation.

 

I thought of a couple of other things, the animation showing you unrolling your map, even though brief, will get annoying. anything that is repeated starts to bug people... especially since people will be doing it hundreds if not thousands of times. also you can't push a button to go to overland travel, you need to exit the area, that way they can do events and scenes and make sure you don't bypass anything.

 

I like the concepts in the video and I even like the Chibi art style in the concept video (Though not of the tone Shroud is going for) but I agree with Sir Mishi on the map animation.

It will get annoying after the 5th time, you'll start to hate your character when you see them do it for the 100th time.

I think a lot of this should be viewed through the lens of Google Earth, you zoom in through the weather (Looks great during storms, rain, sand, snow or otherwise) into a scene and zoom out to see the entire continent and your place in it when you're moving overworld. Maybe updated tiles or parts you haven't been to recently return to a hand drawn unexplored style.

The unexplored style might act as a replacement for the bland looking fog of war. I've said it in the other thread on this topic, your memory of a place probably should be shown to degrade if that place starts changing.

It's not how you remember it to have been.

 

Great calls everyone! The main ideas I was trying to come across with were.. free up movement, and make it the players map... everything else was food for thought.

Redfish and Cromulent you guys definitely have great points about the art style and making more google-earth like. We do need an essence of realism. I think by combining the two.. drawn map for unexplored and 3d models for the explored or a mix-match of the two we could really shake things up.

Mishri, I agree. If it was animated, it would have to be simple, subtle, and varied. If you were in combat, or locked to an instance, I'd assume you could 'look' at the map but not actually travel anywhere.

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Keep your ideas and flaws in mine coming everyone! After hearing back from Chris and everyone in the community, I will try and put together another iteration with everything taken into account

 

@redfish All these screenshots are a BIG help... what I wouldn't give for the map to take the look of some of these haha. I hope the devs take a peek at them!

 

Chris said in chat last night that he'd post a video response to this sometime today.