Is Your Guild Jealous? Let's talk about stones and being stoned :/

I like thinking outside the box when I am thinking about SotA, because it's "New Britannia"...

Is Your Guild Jealous? Let's talk about stones and being stoned

I am a person that enjoys things that have a reason for them to be here or there. So with that in mind;
"What do we need Guild Stones for?"

Is it for the PvP sparring?... yes
Is it for me to have something else that is special?... I can't think of anything else I could need it for...

Looking back at the history of online guilds, the first were web pages as was the "Ultima Dragons". Did they have rivals?...no... only other web sites that anyone could also be a member of.
Looking back at UO, this was our real first historical encounter with having a character that had pledged allegiance to a particular Guild by having their name placed upon the Guild's Stone. But also in UO, we had 5 characters per account, which could (and most and many, many did) be members of other Guilds and on their Guild Stones.
Then there was SP Shard (UO's Siege Perilous Server) which could only be played by one character per account, which is similar to what comes with our account here in SotA.

I know that War Guilds (PvP) need a Stone, but why do other Guilds need a Stone? If I don't want to spar, then why would any other Guild need a Stone, other than for sparring? Could this "Sparring" benefit of being in one Guild be replaced by an arena in the basement for Sparring Anyone?

If I am an electrician and thus I belong to an electrician's Guild, then if I am also a brick layer, can't I also be in a brick laying Guild as well as the electrician's?

Right now, if we take sparring and satisfy it by the Arena, then the only purpose I see in belonging to only one Guild is some advertisement to be placed over my head. Without the want of this to be there and sparring having already been satisfied... I can see no reason that such groups should be more jealous as to want me to say I belong to only them, like some lawyer's marriage only for jealousy itself.
If it is a thing about some fidelity, then is this to say that people have no fidelity without a contract?
It's a fact that if we had more slots for more characters, that we would have the ability to belong to many guilds, so why should we say that we can only belong to one?

I know that advertisement space over my head means something to a guild that wants to grow, but wouldn't that be satisfied with asking a question of what guilds I belonged to?
Do all of us remember how a Ninja comes into a Guild?... then has free PK ability until they are de-guilded?
I know that it would do the PvP Guilds some good if only PvP Guilds were so jealous, because then they would be able to see each other very quickly with their Guild banners flying over their heads.
Will I not be hunting with anyone that hasn't my guild's banner over their head?... that's a preposterous thought as we all know that we will have many friends from many guilds that we will want to go hunting with.

What I am thinking is, that we need to take a fresh look at Guild's and discus why our one and only chr should only be able to be a member of one... unless it's a PvP Guild...

It's a Brave New Britannia, who's rules and history has yet to be made...
Belonging to Just One Guild, What's the Benefit?
Why Just Belonging to Only One?
~Time Lord~

 

Just as SotA will allow a player to choose as many skills as they want, so too show it allow a player to join as many guilds as they want.

The benefit of allowing multiple guild membership is that it strengthens the bond a single player has with multiple players. This will be important as the use of "selective multiplayer" will naturally silo players.

 

i guess thats the plan, i would like to see an ability to craft guild cloaks as a main identifier instead of tags. that way you could change guilds as cloaks

 

Interesting question!
I'm a Citizen of PaxLair, what is in one game and will be in this a player run town group. We have been together in UO since 1998.
I'm also a patron of The Bear Tavern and a member of it's Militia, bound to come to the Tavern's aid.
Se'an has ever been and will be an archer/ranger might not there be a guild for that skill?

One does not seem possible in his tale...........

 

My fear is how multiple guilds will affect PvP flagging with guilds at war with each other.

If I could change guild affiliation merely by putting on another cloak, couldn't I merely change my cloak to enable myself to attack you? Or change cloaks to prevent myself from being attacked back in retaliation?

I've sworn allegiance to MGT470, but would consider joining the Bear's Tavern and Poet's Circle if you can join multiple guilds, but I'm not sure how to best handle that.

 

I currently belong to both Moongate Travelers and Bear Tavern. It's allowed and they play nicely together

 

Can we formalize types of guilds? I agree that multiple guild membership makes sense and also recognize the problem this poses to PvP. Tagging a guild as Town, War, Craft or Social then allows attributes and limitations to be applied to each individually.

 

In the guild list I maintain, I try to list what type of guild it is if they've declared as such.

 

I don't know. I kinda liked the whole guildstone thing. But as for the ability to join more than one, I have mixed feelings on that. No set opinion either way. I guess it could probably have some advantages, especially for rp, if there's a way to keep it from becoming too convoluted and messy. Like a limit on how many, for instance, or compatible types like someone else said. I'm sure they could come up with some limitations to prevent problems. One thing I think would need to be absolutely mandatory though is full transparency. One should not be able to hide their affiliations from any guild they are a member of. Maybe guildstones would be useful for that.

edit: Oh yeah, forgot to mention about the rp aspect of having a guild stone rather than opening an in-game window or type /ginvite since you asked about that in the op.

 

"Necessity of a Stone"
PvP &War guilds will always need their stones having the power to hold the individual to it's Warring PvP Quest... that is un-doubtable ...

"I am also fond of the common Guild Stones"
Seeing all my fellow friend's names that all abide by and believe in the principals and values of all the others upon it. Yet it's the jealous power that older game's stones have that I see in question for purpose here. If any Basement Arena can be an allocated for PvP area (which should be easy to program), then this should satisfy any need for "Sparring & Dueling". I see no reason then to give the ability of my fellow guild mate to be able to combat me anytime they wish to. taking away such an ability from common guild stones, gives more purpose to the Arena Basements and draws us to a place where the custom of Arena Style Combat can add to our RP of challenge and tournament contest, thus encouraging a more flavorful "We will Rock You Scene" (from the movie "A Knight's Tail").


"The Arena, The Beginnings of a New Britannia's New and True Culture"
In doing away with any jealous nature of our common stones, we thus encourage a brighter and more flavorful culture that other games will envy. The Arena is where any of the brave can test their skills in the truest tradition of contest in their preparations for.... "Tournament!"
What PvE Guild then would deny such encouragement to such a fine tradition?
What PvE Guild whould then host and (I dare say) coordinate with other Fine PvE Guilds to create "Tournament Circuit" for their favored Knight or Mage to travel, meet and compete in such a fine cultured and brave endeavor of contest?

By taking away the fangs of our guild mates outside of the Arena, we thus then encourage a more noble a mannerism within all the PvE Guilds of our New Britannia and encourage that which is noble and righteous behavior that in turn will encourage any rivals to meet in our New Costumed Britannian Combat... that which is "The Arena!"

I am also a pledge to the our land's new grand gathering place the our Bear Tavern has become to our lands. yet I also, too yearn to be a Guilded member of another. Our New Britannia's Bear Tavern is a very grand and all encompassing gathering place for all our New Britannians to enjoy and learn much from. Fore adventurers from all over our grand Kingdom will always gather there and become more closely brother'ed, binding all the Guild's by embracing all our new country has to offer.
It will be a grand place for all our newcomers to start and find out more of all the guilds flavors, people and cultures.

As for anyone knowing my or anyone's affiliations, this should not be worn except by perhaps uniform. For if I do not wish any of my affiliations known or nosy'ed into, then this too become a discovery proses for any and all our peoples.
"Discovery and Inquire is the Essence of All True Quests Which is the Flavor of our Game"

"So, Where Do You Hail From Stranger?" (Proposed New Tradition)
What advertisements we should fly above our heads I believe should follow in a New Britannian Tradition discarding the old ways of any UO bygone gaming traditions. I believe that "where a player or character has house and home" be our new flag above our character's heads. This gives incentive for those who are homeless wonderers to find home within those places where their friends they enjoy and admire have theirs, and then work for their own homes to be there.
This instills community local pride, and again challenges us to band together as citizens of such places, thus becoming a guild as our Bear Tavern is, a guild of many guilds through the power of pride of what city, town, or hamlet we may be a citizen of. this also binds a Kingdom, to feel as a Kingdom and add that flavor that we all remember from history's writings and remembrances as; "Where do you hail from?".... "I am Lord British of New Britannia"... "I am Time Lord of Kingsport M'Liege"... "and I am Marry of Owl's Head, Sire".... "and I am Robin Hood of "The Hole in the Wall" hamlet here to rob you
The many places we come from in this way, "having these places to place over our heads" encourages a more immersive environment, and adds pride to any city that a Arena Competitor may hail from.
We need no small false Kingdoms to create any illusion, we have a Kingdom and then united as "The True Kingdom of our New Britannia!"

PvP Guilds will always need another war styled stone, yet we citizens of New Britannia, need to de-fang and loose the jealousy within our stones, without any regard to limits that are totally un-necessary, of any special restrictions or limits that could have any purpose, other than to place our names on them because our hearts then agree and bind to the principals for which we were invited to join into.

Feedback, all feedback is invited and wanted, in flame of heart or flame of destruction, but with that which is within us all as the question...
"A Flame That Has Purpose!"

What Say Ye' My Friends?
~Time Lord~

 

I have some thoughts on this, in no particular order. Sorry.

I do believe we should have the ability to join more than one guild if we desire to and can be accepted into them. I even think those who join a PvP only guild should have the option of multiple guilds, just not multiple PvP guilds (which I think is what you meant, after all a person could be a PvP player, an RPer and a crafter). That said, some guilds will, by their nature, be exclusive. A dedicated merc guild/group with few players that asks for many hours and max level will not likely want members hanging around chatting with drinking buddies. Some guilds will likely be non-dedicated by nature, the NWW type that enjoy getting players started in the game with no real intent to keep them past the fledgling stage. (A great place for experienced players to double join.)

I would like the ability to turn on guild tags though. There are times when a guild wants to show off that its members are there (of course if we have distinctive cloaks this helps). Recruiting is a factor, sure. Support at large events, battles is another. Assassin guilds (in whatever form those take) wouldn't want to flag, obviously. And if there are no tags whatsoever, clones (by donning an outfit) could be ruinous for guilds. How close do you look at the person's cloak to know?

IRL we have much the same. Certain clothes, pins, ties, handshakes, et. al. Sometime people want everyone to know their association. Other times they don't. The difference between a uniformed officer and an undercover one is often just clothing. (But, dressing and acting like a uniformed officer and not being one is illegal.) Will there be ways to tell? Can any character with an axe to grind dress up in an honorable guilds clothing and ruin their reputation?

In the real world when Father Mahony takes off his collar, he still looks the same and different from everyone else in walk, style, talk and mannerism, everyone knows who he is and that he is a priest. In game, we have no such tells. In real I can tell my friends a half mile off from the way they walk, but in game everyone walks the same. Without these distinctions guild tags help. I can't give an avatar a secret handshake and know if she is a Fluffy Bunny or a Raging Schmuck. But, presumably, guild tags can't be faked.

So again, I am in favor of multiple joins and in favor of not always seeing tags, but if the person chooses to fly one, I hope they can.

 

never liked tags tbh, it just breaks the immersion for me... ( but i understand your issue)

 

Having Muti-Choices seems what I think I'm in favor of ... if you're a PvE player;

I don't think PvP Guilds have much of a choice about what colors/tags they fly... yet in UO they still had the option of showing their guild title or not to.

As for the PvE Guilds, I think I'd be in favor of flying any guild affiliation I wanted to fly or none t all... or even fly the colors/name of my SotA home town's name up there above my head as sort of a citizen of New Britannia's sort of title Warrior, Mage, Craftsman of____<---<<< fill in the blanks "Owl's Head" or whatever...

And as far as the PvE guild stone is concerned, the option to be exclusive or not exclusive to multi guild. That would sure be a tipoff to me how jealous any Guild Master could be.
That way I'd know if I wanted to tell them if I had a 2nd, 3rd or 4-5th account going on
We all know from UO that many players didn't have all their chrs in one guild.
~Time Lord~

 

Of course Time Lord is right on this. If I want to fly my guild tag I should be able to. If you don't want to see any guild tags, you should be able to turn it off, just like names. Hard for people to argue with having choices.

And isn't that what this thread is about? The ability to join multiple guilds is about choices. The issue may come up, can I be in leadership of multiple guilds? Can a person be an officer is 2, 3 more? Can one character be a guild leader of multiple guilds? (In game mechanics, not arguing ability to actually lead more than one.) But, there is no reason to debate the pros and cons if we cannot even join more than one.

It seems to me, the only reasonable thing to offer is the ability to join multiple guilds. If you don't like it, don't do it. If your guild doesn't like it, don't allow your members to do it. (game mechanics must be included)

 

TLDR: I like guild stones because they strengthen the social aspects of guilds in general. I would also like guilds to be much rarer than they are in most games, possibly by making the cost of creating a guild very high.

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From an RP perspective, it makes complete sense that there should be tangible items in the game that list the members of each guild. If we take a step back from this issue, I don't think it's hard to see why.

UO had its guild stones. The idea behind guild stones kind of makes sense, but it's a nuanced notion. The stones served as a record of official members of a guild--a record which could be referenced by guild members or, depending on where the stone was placed, rival / ally guilds. Of course, this was a role playing convention, though, that was set up to let a more convenient game mechanic make sense. Other players in your guild also had green names. This meant that you could recognize members without remembering their names. The presence of both this feature and the guild stone represented a sort of compromise, such that RPers could use the stone as a mechanic by which they can claim to know who is in their guild, while colored names helped players who don't care about role playing or aren't very good at remembering guild names tell whether a player is on a particular guild's roster quickly and easily.

Fast forward to EverQuest and WoW. These games axe the tangible item aspect completely, instead asking you to "register" your guild with a central authority. The idea here is that the central authority would manage the guild's roster, but that idea causes a break in the logic behind referencing that roster. That break is simply that you don't have to actually have the roster on hand to check members or manage the guild. You effectively use a UI element that is accessible from anywhere to manage the guild, and, naturally, that doesn't really make any sense at all. It is, however, quite convenient for players.

I really and truly liked the idea of guild stones in UO, partly because they limited guilds in various ways. For one, I didn't have to worry about getting chain spammed with guild invites on visiting a city because invites would require me to visit the guild's actual stone. While other games support auto-ignoring invites upon receipt, having to go into your UI to manage social settings like this seems like a contrivance that should be avoided in a game that wants to support a big toolbox for RP. I also quite enjoyed the actual act of visiting a guild's stone to join the guild. Having this as a requirement establishes a single place--the location of the stone--as a guild's "headquarters," per se, and it contributed to making the being part of a guild feel more meaningful, like I was part of a real group of like-minded players. This is as opposed to guilds in games that offer greater convenience, like WoW, where every single server eventually became dominated by giant guilds with 800,000 members that had built their ranks by sitting in town spamming.

I am very fond of a mechanic that requires guilds to actually talk to players and have a legitimate conversation / interaction with them to build the guild's ranks. An entirely UI-based guild makes guild affiliation meaningless in a social sense, and it forces players to look for practical reasons to join guilds. The result there is that guilds in games that offer greater freedom tend to be built on the advantages that the guild can provide, like in WoW, where members of guilds earn rewards based on the guild's rank (and, directly related, a guild's rank has quite a lot to do with its size). I would love to see this immersion-breaking trend beaten back with SotA.

Assuming guild stones (or similar) were brought to SotA, I would also love to see those stones be super expensive--like higher-than-cost-of-plot expensive. Players can be friends, chat with each other, and generally socialize with many other tools that don't require being part of the same guild. It would be neat if forming a real guild in the game were a real accomplishment, such that forming the guild is the reward for the contribution and dedication of a truly like-minded group of players. This would establish a sort of filter to prevent players from creating guilds all willy-nilly, and it would make guild creation or membership something of a prestigious achievement.

My two cents. <3

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TLDR: I like guild stones because they strengthen the social aspects of guilds in general. I would also like guilds to be much rarer than they are in most games, possibly by making the cost of creating a guild very high.

 

In L2 you could have both a clan hall and a castle. (One of each at any time.) There would be an NPC outside and an NPC inside. The outside NPC was there for talking to outsides and accepting siege challenges, etc. and the one inside would give you whatever perks and buffs were associated with whatever you owned.

Perhaps if a guild gets to a certain level through performing tasks, it gets some presence in the persistent world, which gets moved to guild owned property if that occurs.

 

Sir Jivalax Azon brings up a very interesting question here;
"The issue may come up, can I be in leadership of multiple guilds? Can a person be an officer is 2, 3 more? Can one character be a guild leader of multiple guilds?"

That's a very good question! It would seem that as more options and choices can be provided, that other choices need to be then further considered.

Many of us here have been Guild Masters or Guild Officers before and understand that there's some form of psychotic behavior flaw we have, that just loves being abused while dealing with all of the inherent qualities that come with hosting guilds.

One problem in particular comes to mind when considering such freedom of choices and that is; We often find that within our larger guilds, there commonly comes about a need for a second Guild Stone for the purposes of a separation from the PvE and PvP wanting members. This has actually been through my experience to be the possible beginnings of a Guild Surrogate Separation, which is nether good nor bad, it just often times happens. We seen such guild separations spawn the very same guild onto many different shards and games.
Yet if any Guild Master wishes to retain control over such a separate 2/two PvE and PvP Guild Stones, it may do that Guild well for their Guild Master to have that ability to do so.

We would hope that such a Guild Master or our Guild Officers would be well known and transparent to their members, yet I see no reason why any truly great leader and handler of great responsibility couldn't control many guilds at once and thus have his or her own factional pseudo Kingdom. Such Kingdoms of multi-guilds may be inherently doomed to failure, yet the story of Shakespeare's Hamlet made a very cool book to read

Then there is the question of; Can a Guild Master be the Master of multi-PvP-Guilds?
Personally, I think this would be a bad decision, yet I also say that this has certain qualities that need to become de-masked.
On one side of this issue we have some very light PvP battle planning security issues.... I say "very light" because most PvP battle plans are made while the battle is brewing on the field. I also say "very light", because it often times takes 2 opposing Guild Masters to plan any good schedule when all their members can meet up for such a battle. Otherwise, there are only skirmish battles that pop up and if there was any objective that could be attacked while all the Opposing Guild's Members were logged out and away, then that was a poorly planned mission, because there was no PvP in it.
So, in that opinion, I would say no, the PvP Guild Masters should not be allowed to control 2 PvP guild Stones

On the other side of the issue, I can see no real reason for the PvP Guild Masters not to be able to control 2 opposing PvP Guild Stones... though I wouldn't recommend it...
I say this because opposing opinion because I knew that few would look at this issue with such open eyes to both sides of it. (like I said, I don't recommend it... but I do believe that it's possible, with possible benefits to it's outcome but I wouldn't recommend it)
We have all played D&D or have heard of the game. We have all seen what possibilities are in any negotiation for a good battle to be enjoyed by our opposing PvP Guilds. So... Just like our D&D Dungeon Master, there could be (and I'm sure there are) many here that could set up a truly enjoyable battle experience for both Opposing Guild Stone's Members to enjoy, cutting out the middle men that must get together to schedule such a PvP battle event. There are "many/many/many" privet UO shard owners that put on great PvP events by controlling their entire shard's events, which is no different than that wish of the PvP Guild Master to provide exciting entertainment to their troops.
But I wouldn't recommend it

Any player should always wish to "completely know" their chosen Guild's Master and Officers in all transparency. Making the right choice in a guild and having fun there, all depends on this central leader, because it is he or she that will guild, or de-guild you if you ever have an opposing or agreeing opinion with them.
"More hearts have been truly broken by Guild Masters than there has ever been do so by any PK ever!"
"Which makes any idea of giving your loyalty to them, something that will hurt you far worse if you are de-guilded, than it will be for them"
Those are true words

"Jealousy and Control Can Be Very Nasty Things!"
The individual member's choices and safety are always paramount, and when your having a bad day, will they still love you in the morning?
Buyer beware...... and make sure you have choices too
~Time Lord~

 

No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be;
Am an attendant lord, one that will do
To swell a progress, start a scene or two,
Advise the prince; no doubt, an easy tool,
Deferential, glad to be of use,
Politic, cautious, and meticulous;
Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse;
At times, indeed, almost ridiculous--
Almost, at times, the Fool.

(From T.S. Eliot's "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock." There's irony here if you know how to find it.)

 

TLDR: I like guild stones because they strengthen the social aspects of guilds in general. I would also like guilds to be much rarer than they are in most games, possibly by making the cost of creating a guild very high. Lord Trenyc

Lord Trenyc Strikes a Cord in This That All of New Britannia Should Hear!

It should not be so easy to create a Guild as it has within our bygone days past, for this is New Britannia that remembers what true fellowship is all about!

In reflection of this that he speaks, my opinion could not have been set so free to the clear view of my following opinion and please chime in if anyone has anything to add or conjecture from it;

"I believe that all people wanting to become a guild should have a quest that they must all take together in order to become a guild together. I believe that with each potential added guild mate there after, have all upon the stone join them in fulfilling the same quest in order to gain membership there in.
This being very difficult to accomplish if it is such a large guild, the quest should be one that takes at least a certain number of people to accomplish.

I'll just state that and see how it flies here for others to inject and elaborate on if any choose to do so... (I can be far too long winded at times)
So, let's speak openly about such a thing as making it more difficult to make our join a guild...
Thank You Lord Trenyc, brilliant statement about the reality of anything real being difficult and how a more serious thing that should be!
~Time Lord~

 

Most games make crating a guild easy. But you have to level a guild up. And that's hard. Some games this is just grinding on mobs and stuff. In Lineage2 you'd have quests, then raids (open world, contested), then castle sieges to level up your guild.
http://www.lineage2.com/en/game/the-library/clans/clan-levels-and-ranks.php

Because there were no factions in l2, in had the strongest guild (or "clan") system I've seen in a game. This is the unit that fought wars, held territory, controlled the economy, etc.