For all the PvP players, what (if anything) would make you explore PvE?

I will go first, as I am a predominantly PvP oriented player. I lean towards PvP because there will never be a better challenge than another person.

You can’t have heroes without villains, but what do villains do when there not hiding in the bushes waiting to pounce on the heroes when they come by? In most cases, nothing. My thoughts would be to develop a better criminal underworld, or something for them to do besides hide in the bushes …..Some sort of criminal enterprises might be nice.

 

I dislike "Simon Says" boss fights, e.g. WoW. But open world, contested raiding can be a lot of fun. Probably the majority of PvP I've experiences in games is around boss spawns, occasionally with the boss active as well. The boss mechanics simply need to be built to encourage improvisation, rather than flawless execution.

Objective based PvP does included PvE. A castle siege is likely full of different mechanics and may include NPCs.

PvE is also part of the logistics of a PvP operation. Getting from hex A to hex B in the fastest time and / or undetected requires knowledge of the map and short cuts. Perhaps one of the routes is full of mobs, but that's the way your enemy wouldn't expect.

PvE is also downtime, a way to test skills, a way to earn cash / resources.

 

That's one of my major beefs with NPC AI. Once you understand the "strategy" it simply became a matter of executing the same sequence of skills over and over. I'm sure one day someone will program an AI that is random, spontaneous, and imperfect enough to mimic human players. Of course, I'd still be fighting against pixels and not some other player which is still boring to me. I don't want to play against Deep Blue. Give me a human adversary and a good chess game and I'm happy as a clam.

I love objectives such as castle sieges. DAoC had a great concept of keep takes which needed to occur such that it made stealing enemy realm's relic easier. Fighting against a well defended keep was very tough. Your guild could even claim keeps which would show your banner proudly. I remember many long nights trying to help my realm get all the enemy relics. Man, those were some pretty awesome times.

Exactly. Refering back to DAoC again there was an underworld passage that you could move the enemy relic through as you headed back to your own relic keep. There were NPCs in there that you had to battle through but it wasn't bad.

That and sometimes I just want to fish!

 

Random, spontaneous, and imperfect is actually easy. It's typically not done because most players dislike that, most players want to be able to master the NPCs and beat then consistently. Thus, even games made to be hard, such as Dark Souls, have NPCs that can be predicted fairly easily.

(By the same token difficult enemies is often easy to do, specially in a game where reflexes and precision matter; what is hard is making it difficult but fun to play against.)

 

Human Intelligence always gets a lot more credit than it's due. There are plenty of smart players out there but there are a lot more that lack in the skill department. The diversity of tactics that players use gets pretty narrow.

There can be AI that is diverse in tactics, if that's the focus of the Devs. Also, with the ability to dynamically update each hex at any time they can change the AI if they wish.

Just because games do not put a lot of resources into AI does not mean it can not be done.

 

Although I do identify as a PVP-friendly players, I often play single player games so I am not sure I am the target of this thread. I know many here would not consider me a hardcore PVPer.

In Single player bad AI can be tolerable if there are proper difficulty settings or enough features to distract from it. However, for multiplayer there are some musts for AI which is mainly focused around the decision making the AI has. AI has to be smart when there is more than one player involved since you cannot scale difficulty by just adjusting HP or DMG to make it "seem" harder.

AI should heal and rez their comrades.
AI should run or flee based on their morale.
AI should be smart on whether they use Melee or Ranged.
AI should be smart about their spell use.
Spawns should be randomized (i.e. no area should always have the same creatures).

Some NWN mods did really good improving the AI on these margin and made some epic mobs. These would be very challenging areas and even dragging PVP enemies into them were great tactics if you needed to loose the enemy or finish them off.

 

Its funny you say that, maybe i don't remember it right, but way back in Ultima it seems i remember , you needed to kill off the healers, and mage's first.

 

So far i haven't seen anything that would entice me to go to PVE, I keep looking but never find a reason to be there. I am curious though as what the PVE peeps can come up with!

 

Until we see SotA's AI pass the Turing Test, I'm content to leave the assumption that only a human opponent can create true lasting challenge uncontested. What would draw a PvP player to do more PvE content? I'm pretty sure the CONTENT would do that. Change of scenery, new resources, a chance to expand their experience. I do think that having optional PvP aspects of the story should be a priority for SOMEONE on the Portalarium staff, so that doing the story OPO PvP will be vastly different, for different reasons, in each and every hex of the board. Make it different enough that the PvP players have a truly different game experience, all because they are PvP. If PvP gets shoved completely off the assembly line, off the story line, and into random designated hexes in the middle of nowhere, it will be a slap in the face to those who wish to play it. Just as long as it's an option to expand our experience, and not an experience being forced down our throats, I think that will do the job.

 

You are quite correct. Discussion on AI isn't where to start with this. I haven't seen an AI I can't macro in about 30 seconds, and the issue isn't with AI it is with the limited game mechanics and limited view of publishers and players for DPS style combat.

The only thing that would interest me in PvE would that if PvE was so incredibally difficult you actually needed to team up to play against it. I don't mean level adjusted mobs, and I don't mean party/group adjusted mobs. I mean just plain difficult to take down as a base.

I like to PvP for two reasons, sometimes another player will surprise you and make your heart beat faster. Then just for the lulz of smashing nubs. Incredibally difficult PvE could accomplish those, I can have my surprise and laugh at my nub friends as the dragons eat them all

 

Where DOES that negative stereotype of PvP players come from?

 

PvE is fun if you're content with repeating the same skill sequence with no real threat to your character's well-being. For that reason, I can't get into it.

PvE seems disingenuous to RP as well: every single one of your plot-lines involves 'killing the bad guys in the cave'? C'mon. Boring. By the way, they just respawned (and haven't noticed their own deaths).

If games were built so that NPCs could be defeated in a variety of ways, that'd be different. If you could actually influence the world with said defeat, that'd be different.

But, that's often not the case in PvE-centric MMOs.

Kidnap them, kill them, earn their trust or respect, befriend them, trade with them, politicize, etc.: these are RP options that are typically only available through player encounters, reinforced by the threat of PvP actions.

RPing via PvE?

Bad NPCs are made to be killed because they're bad and that's the only way to interact with them. Good NPCs are made to help because that's the only way to interact with them. There is no freedom. They have no personalittly beyond their conceptualization.

You can't mobilize a boycott against a vendor because they're selling ecologically unsustainable goods. They don't listen, and it has no effect either way because of their coding. You can't ask a brigand to stop in exchange for wealth, for example. He either dies, or you flee. He doesn't care much. He doesn't even remember your face. He gets no bonus in the next combat for having learned your fighting style.

This sort of gameplay is the only way to preserve immersive roleplaying? Please. It's boring and unimaginative. Two-dimensional.

It feels like a waste of time to spar with something imaginary and, frankly, something that was literally made to be defeated. It limits my character development. Figure out a way to prevent that, and I'm in.

As it is, the devs build monsters to be killed. That's a problem as is. Not only am I limited to killing this thing, but Devs take care to make sure PvE is easy because insecure folks whine.

I guess it's fun for casuals who don't enjoy being challenged. I don't get it.

Players, however, build themselves to be unstoppable. To bring them to an end feels much more rewarding. Or to strike up a relationship based on player-established commonalities: awesome. Throw in objectives, and I'm having a ball.

Roleplaying encounters where I can uncloak myself, spook the player, cast Paralyze on them, and threaten, 'If I see you harm any woodland creatures in this forest, It'll be your end!' and Wildform as I dash off -- That sounds like a legitimate roleplaying druid move.

Or to roleplay the classic magic urn: even cooler. (Definitely drop the item I'm asking for).

To draw me in? Give me those encounters with NPCs and make the results lasting. Make PvE fit in with PvP, as PrimeRib suggested. Make NPCs feel more like real people. Give me consequences for killing random NPCs, or for being killed by them (since it's no differerent than being killed by a player). Let me see the ripple effect that one death has on their tribe, faction, etc.

Also, make it hard as hell to kill NPCs.

Really though, just give me more options!

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I wonder how many of you have played any of the other ultima's when I read your responses.

 

While the single-player games certainly offered better PvE, all of the replies thus far seem to be speaking to the PvE that we've encountered in MMORPGs (such as Ultima Online).

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Which is weird since this game isa hybrid....aiming towards ultima 7 of old as well....if it plays like apve MMO I will be pretty disapointed....

 

Actually, I'm wondering this myself sometimes. This isn't the spiritual successor to UO, which some seem to think, since UO had no story line. It was sandbox from day one. This is an RP game with a classic RG linear story line that has a beginning and an end. It may end up sandbox style at the end of the story in 5 years or maybe they'll add more story, who knows? But right now it's about the story and immersing yourself in the story. At least that's the apparent intent from everything I've been able to find.

Other things are added like housing, crafting, pvp, etc., so we can also immerse ourselves and feel like we're living in the world while progressing in the storyline, but the overriding theme is the story. In every RG interview video I've watched, he speaks at great length of his early dungeons & dragons campaigns, the Ultima series, RP, the storylines, and his intentions with this game.

Yes, you can bypass the story, whether you're pvp or pve. But I just sometimes have to wonder why anyone would want to play a story driven, RP game and ignore the story, and in some cases even try to change the focus of the game.

But that's just me. I apologize if this seems off topic. It's not really. Like the title of this thread, I too am wondering what it would take for some pvp people to pve, RP, and enjoy the story that RG and team are creating this game around. Without pve, the story can't progress. Why is it so beneath the pvp dignity of some folks?

I know there are plenty of pvp people who are here for the RP and storyline, though they do enjoy pvp as well and will pvp in this game too. But those folks are not disdaining the rich content being planned for this game, they are in fact here for that. There are plenty of other games out there for the style pvp some seem to want this game to be. But there's nothing wrong with variety in life (and games.) So why does every game have to be identical for some folks? And like the op title, seriously what would it take? You're here. There must be some reason, right?

 

There's a beginning and the end: cool. That very premise, to me, is the beginning of the discussion. It allows us to talk about game mechanics, such as all of the electives that you'd mentioned. While the game can be played single player, the Devs have very much encouraged multiplayer and "trying new things."

I don't have an answer for you. While you are wondering, "Why..?" I am wondering, "Why not..?"

Playing through the established lore is thrilling for many, but others (such as myself) like to create and/or expand lore as well.

I think the focus of the game is meant for it to be an immersive roleplaying experience, no matter where that experience takes you.

Again, I wouldn't dissolve the bridge between PvP players and PvE content. Most of us enjoy both. As it is, the current PvP system is the same traditional garbage that leaves nobody well-fed.

The idea is to allow PvP-oriented individuals to play & roleplay through the story without limiting their freedom to act. In this case, their freedom to act chaotically, to be evil, or to straddle the gray line.

For me, I'm here to roleplay. It's dulling to consistently compromise otherwise interesting characters because the game mechanics restrict my ability to act freely. I'll PvE sometimes. I'll PvP sometimes. But, I will not break character.

Virtue is an asset to this game: why are we limited to doing only virtue? That very notion erodes the concept of virtue. It's forced.

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@crossbowsoda Very well said. It's fair to say, then, that you are one of the pvp folks I mentioned who are here for both, the pvp and the story/RP? I was mostly wondering about those who are not.

I sometimes come across wrong since I'm an oddball/anomaly these days in that I'm a pure pve person who has no interest in pvp in any form, and yet wants to play with pvp people in the same world because I have friends and family who love pvp and in some cases are quite avid pvpers. (I'd go so far as to say even rabid at times, lol. **ducks and winks at certain parties**). And sometimes people get offended at my views. But seriously, I have no interest for my own part, but I fully support their desire to enjoy the game to it's fullest. I do draw the line where it potentially involves me against my wishes but that's been addressed in this game, at least at present with the "current thinking."

What I'm wondering about though, is the folks who feel that doing anything but pvp is out of the question. The ones who say !@#! storylines, !@#! RP & RPers, !@#! pve. And in some cases even trying to get the team to change the focus of the game altogether. I just have a hard time understanding why they even get involved in games where pvp isn't the main focus of the game, but is rather a part of the game like all the other parts. And particularly in this game where the story itself is the main focus. And the question in the thread title "what (if anything) would make you explore PvE?" kind of ties in with that. I too would love to know the answer to that as I've always been curious about it.

 

You aren't. You will be able to attack any "good" character whose player has opted to take part in the PvP, which means you can play an evil character in PvP.

Unless you mean you can't roleplay an "evil" character without being able to attack an unwilling player. In which case I will have to say, good riddance. If a player's enjoyment of the game depends on hurting the experience for others — which is what I always assume to be the case when a player says he can't enjoy the game if he can't attack unwilling victims — then I sincerely think that the game as a whole will be better without that aggressive player.

 

'Good riddance,' huh?

Well, that helps me to understand something: you're sensitive. That's cool. Our playstyles are incompatible. Anything that happens outside of your happy zone is a problem. Fair, I guess. Not very exciting to me, but fair.

So, that's exactly why I'd prefer for us to be segregated via filters. Types such as yourself apparently need gratification 100% of the time, and, hey, we all have needs.

However, the post-mortem out-of-character whining genuinely ruins my in-game experience. I could give you a couple examples as to how I've accomodated my victims, but your harsh words indicate that you aren't open to new experiences or leaving your bubble.

In that case, I won't waste our time with fine details.

I've gone off my rails:

I say all of this assuming that the Devs will create some kind of permanent filter where you and I won't meet up in-game. I can have my full-loot, open-PvP and legitimately good or evil character (since flagging is a farce); I'll spare you from oblivion, and your complaints about me being a 'super mean PK!' won't have to reach me.

I hope that there is a full-loot, open-world PvP setting, so that people willing to engage an immersive world of actions & consequences don't have to murk around in the restrictive play style that you prefer. And so that you don't have to get your feet wet & hands bloodied in mine.

I hope that RG & his team confidently entrust us to make our own decisions.

By all means, I hope that you are happy staying in the Shire. Tip one back for love & peace.

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