Full loot always

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ilcontegis, Jul 10, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Beaumaris

    Beaumaris Avatar

    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    7,415
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Caladruin
    Cause-and-effect needs to be considered when building game play systems where multiple players are involved. What is the game play outcome caused by a full loot system?

    Here is what happens: 1) When you die, you lose all belongings. 2) If you don't carry replacement gear in a pack for fear of losing it too, you will run back to your house some distance away, 3) Along the way, you will face encounters, naked. This take time. 4) You will get to your house and hopefully have replacement gear; if not, your night is over. 5) You will then journey back to the PVP area, with more encounters that slow you down, and 6) Thirty minutes or more later you will get back to the PVP area, and find that everyone else is gone. 7) Then, as you resign yourself to find another PVP area, your spouse will say it is time to take out the trash, feed the dog out, or tuck the kids into bed. Do that for a week, rinse and repeat, then ask the question - were our evenings spent in PVP or really doing something else? Were the moments of gear-loss risk worth possibly hours of downtime experienced out of PVP?

    Most PVP players I know seek game play where the action they are engaged in is PVP. The thrill comes from being in combat. Not come from a few seconds of looting or much greater timer running across the map to get a new sword. Sure, the risk of losing full loot does add to the edge-of-the-seat feeling. At least for five minutes until you die. But here is the thing: PVP players expect to die. And die a lot. If that true, then a full loot system actually deters PVP by forcing at least half of those involved (the losers of a match) to be doing something other than PVP. Will PVP gamers stick with SoTA if the game play system creates excessive downtime? It leads to this: PVP and corpse looting are two different game play activities and systems. When they are combined, what is the impact of a full corpse looting system on the PVP system? If a full corpse looting system creates downtime for PVP players, is that what PVPers want?

    Given all that, how can full corpse looting be implemented so that it does not create excessive downtime for PVP players who enjoy face to face combat? If it cannot, why do it? For the thrill of PVP? Or for the thrill of corpse looting? Instead of framing the dialog about why this is a good for PVP, should it be about why corpse looting is otherwise good for the game?
     
  2. Turk Key

    Turk Key Avatar

    Messages:
    2,561
    Likes Received:
    4,012
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    What if.... upon death, your ghost had skills and could stand over the corpse or nearby defending same? This would extend pvp beyond the kill to some extent. Perhaps there could be a 5 minute window where if the ghost was successful at defending his body, there would be no looting. If the ghost was unsuccessful at defense of his body within the 5 minutes, then full looting applies. For those who want some "insurance" before participating in pvp, perhaps this type of defense system would be palatable in place of insurance, with some acceptance of full looting too. I can imagine some pretty cool ghost skills could be imagined and implemented.
     
  3. Turk Key

    Turk Key Avatar

    Messages:
    2,561
    Likes Received:
    4,012
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    As a second thought re. my previous post, I would propose that the ghost would not be able to kill, but rather in some way delay the ability of people to loot. His goal would be to hold off the looting until the 5 minute window closes and his items become immune from looting.
     
  4. jiirc

    jiirc Avatar

    Messages:
    2,853
    Likes Received:
    2,893
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Interesting, but how will the ghost fend off the attacker or attackers? Is it through disrupting the loot process? If the ghost can continually disrupt then why have looting at all? can the ghost be attacked again so that the ghosts in turn can't disrupt? Is it by fighting? There's a reason that the ghost is a ghost, the ghost just lost the fight so how could the ghost be expected to win this time? And if the ghost is just disrupting, that could be a very boring 5 minutes hitting the same keys over and over again. Hmm, maybe not; pve players do it for hours on end in raids. :)
     
  5. Angor

    Angor Avatar

    Messages:
    59
    Likes Received:
    94
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    I think PvP has to part of this game from an RP point of view. But It has to be balanced so that you are not forced into the PvP play style (ie: save zones and PvP zones). And looting is ok too, but full loot would turn this game into another UO mess, and just degrade into PK, and griefing. Full looting would be a deal breaker for many (not all) of the RP community.
     
    Gaelis likes this.
  6. Turk Key

    Turk Key Avatar

    Messages:
    2,561
    Likes Received:
    4,012
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't know how he would do it, perhaps call some undead, perhaps hold down items in the backpack so that the looter could only take one at a time... just something to slow the process, not fight the winner per se, just slow him down a bit so he would struggle to get 100% loot in the 5 minutes. Remember that the ghost would have to stay by the body for 5 minutes to protect it. This is time wasted that could be used to travel for a resurrection and prep for return. The attacker could choose not to loot, forcing the vanquished to waste the time sticking around. Can't ghosts create slime? (trying to remember the ghostbuster scenario). He could slime the backpack. Who knows?

    Just trying to think of ways to maintain 100% loot and compromise with the non 100% crowd. If the 100% loot was not simply a double click on the body, then perhaps the possibility of saving some of their items would draw more people into the fray.
     
  7. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,887
    Likes Received:
    8,359
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    I never resold any looted items in SotA. I wouldn't even call that griefing. It forces the person to re-equip before they can come back and attack you.

    I would keep loot, or turn it back into ingots. If I was really upset at somebody in a guild war, there were a couple of times I killed them by a bank or other populated area, and I would spread their loot all over the floor and let the people flock over and pick it up, but that was if the guy was a real big talker, or really made me upset for some reason.

    There was one guy that always talked smack, we had a few guildwars against them, and he was really elusive and hard to kill. When we got him his loot was scattered... scisors, cloth, dirt.. it didn't matter what he had on him it was on the floor. Most people I looted I took the stuff I thought was valuable enough to carry while not weighing me down too much. So I knew I couldn't take everything even if I could. So more times than not the player could come back and regain a good amount of that loot. The basics like scissors and knives I would leave behind.
     
    L.M. Avorin Swiftslay likes this.
  8. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,887
    Likes Received:
    8,359
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Not sure about that. I never resold any item I looted. That would force the other player to re-equip... I guess somebody had to make the items they re-equipped with.
     
  9. Isaiah

    Isaiah Avatar

    Messages:
    6,887
    Likes Received:
    8,359
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    In UO people did not always take all the loot even if they have access to it. However I can see in SotA since the world is instanced, somebody might think about scattering loot around the ground more often so they can really dig it in to the guy they just beat.

    If in UO people didn't always loot stuff due to carrying too many items or weight (too many stones), then why should we think full loot is good for SotA if people might ALWAYS fully loot a person and drop their gear on the ground (instance)? It is a different situation than UO, because it is a different game. So maybe complete full loot is not a good option for a game like SotA.

    Having a hybrid loot system might be what is needed... For starters the devs want us to be able to wear our best gear in combat. Then maybe it is harder (or slower) to loot the best quality items (because of chaining weapons to your wrist, or better custom fitting armor...). If quality items take longer to loot than lower quality items then people might want to wear better gear because wearing second rate gear might lead to losing more stuff.

    Then it becomes a game of strategy as to figure out what to loot, and also not go over your weight allowance. Throwing items on the ground also could be limited if it takes a certain amount of time to loot an item. Also if looting an item takes time, then your avatar would be put in a "rummaging" state. This state might be able to be interrupted. If we can interrupt looting then people might not loose their items due to the fact of allies still wacking on the people stupid enough to loot in a wild combat zone. So looting should take finesse and come if you totally beat the opponents.

    Edited.
     
  10. Ned888

    Ned888 Avatar

    Messages:
    788
    Likes Received:
    1,152
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    If the learning curve is too steep and punishing then they will just quit and the game will be a ghost town.

    IMO full loot is seen as both abusive and difficult to accept by the general gaming population. There's no doubt that some folks like it, but the game needs to appeal to a wider audience in order to be successful.

    Full loot is probably too much for the majority of gamers to swallow in this day and age. It's gone the way of the dodo.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Lord-Galiwyn and Mishri like this.
  11. Akrondar

    Akrondar Avatar

    Messages:
    467
    Likes Received:
    809
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I dont like the proposed ransom system that much, but i understand the necessity of some kind of system that allow us to see rare items in common battles.

    I prefer the known insurance system, BUT, with a fixed max number of items insured equipped at a time. Lets say only 3 items at a time. Oh, And should only be applied to an item when you are at a bank, to prevent insurance immediately after looting.
     
  12. Silent Strider

    Silent Strider Avatar

    Messages:
    1,067
    Likes Received:
    1,343
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Actually, I believe it was too much to swallow for the majority of gamers from the start. It (plus thieving, and never being safe from PvP) is why I never gave UO a chance back then, despite loving all previous Ultima games.
     
    Noctiflora, WrathPhoenix and Ned888 like this.
  13. Turk Key

    Turk Key Avatar

    Messages:
    2,561
    Likes Received:
    4,012
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Another question comes to mind. If you are killed and become a ghost, I assume that you have to go to the overland map to get back to a resurrection point and then to a re-equip site. The question is, after all this you have to re-enter the overland map to get back to the hex that contains the scene of the crime. Can I assume that when entering that hex, I will be in the same instance as I left? If not will my body be visible in the instance I find myself in? If my body is across all instances (so I can recover my belongings), can every one in all instances also see my body?

    If I go out mining or just walking around, could a corpse suddenly appear which was the result of a kill in another instance? I don't see how people will be able to recover their items if they have to leave the hex to re-equip.
     
  14. NRaas

    NRaas Avatar

    Messages:
    3,984
    Likes Received:
    5,841
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Glenraas
    The game could theoretically "add" your corpse object to whatever copy of the hex you happen to enter when you return. It knows you died there, and it knows you have just re-entered the scene, so adding a brand new copy of your corpse to the map would be fairly simple.

    This would be quite necessary, if say the instance vanished entirely due to you being the only one holding it open.

    Mind you, under the "current thinking" there is no need for a corpse run at all, as when you resurrect your body (and any unlooted equipment) are pulled to your rez-point and reintegrated with your newly rezzed "self". :)
     
    Noctiflora and docdoom77 like this.
  15. Batoche1864

    Batoche1864 Avatar

    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    239
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lloydminster Alberta Canada
    There are a few common assumptions that most are making; the first being ignoring the fact that full loot only applies to those flagged for PvP, and thus will always be optional; the second is that there will be a corpse run, the combat system is nowhere near it's completed state so we have no way of knowing the details of the death mechanism: the third is that SotA is going to be like most other RPG's where there is an unreasonable capacity for the inventory system, full loot won't matter much if you can only take one or two items without exceeding your inventory capacity.

    From what I've read there's going to be a more realistic limit on what players can carry.
     
  16. killdonkey

    killdonkey Avatar

    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    3
    No one can deny that having full loot will make the game much more interesting. If there is full loot, then players will be more cautious of what they do and that will add another element unseen in really any mmo.
     
  17. docdoom77

    docdoom77 Avatar

    Messages:
    1,274
    Likes Received:
    3,381
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Latveria

    I deny it. Your premise is now negated. :p
     
    Ragnabrock, Phredicon, Ned888 and 4 others like this.
  18. Mishri

    Mishri Avatar

    Messages:
    3,812
    Likes Received:
    5,585
    Trophy Points:
    165
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Great Falls, MT
    Full loot really depends on a couple of factors, death penalties and availability of items.


    Full Loot is itself a death penalty, it can be a very harsh one.
    Insurance negated that death penalty and made a set amount of gold your death penalty in UO. That was a relatively minor expense. What was it? like 20k gold? something you could get about 10 minutes of farming? I didn't care if I did in UO anymore because there wasn't really any penalty anymore. If they upped the price by a factor of 10-100x and gave 100% of that gold to whoever killed you, then you are onto something. I'm not sure if that is how it currently works, but back when I last played it was very little gold you got for killing someone with insurance. It really spoiled the thrill of the game because it went from tough penalty to practically no penalty.

    Full Loot in a equipment system like WoW would be so horrible it would be rage-quit worthy to die. If WoW changed it to an insurance model where it takes your gold and gives it to your killer (say 50 gold) then that would be tolerable, but you'd probably find far fewer people engage in it if several battles and they lose enough gold to buy a special mount.

    Full loot in an equipment system like UO, where GM made gear was fairly easy/inexpensive and could be replaced easily meant it was mostly just mildly annoying, and you had to learn not to carry anything of value on you anywhere dangerous.

    So, in this game we need to find the right balance, where the death penalty/reward for pvp is correctly measured based on how difficult it is to get equipment, and how much people are willing to risk. So far their idea is that 1 piece of item at risk is acceptable, meaning good equipment should be harder to get/find than UO. Their idea of getting your item back likely stems from their affinity/durability system. repair costs increase and your affinity goes up on items as you use them, so losing items will likely be mostly harmful to you, and not any sort of gain from the looting player. (Who wants to buy a heavily used breastplate that is expensive to repair and you start off with 0 affinity?) The thing we then have to find is the right balance of gold cost to get your item back, something reasonable, but you don't want it to happen too often.
     
    Retro likes this.
  19. Lord-Galiwyn

    Lord-Galiwyn Avatar

    Messages:
    1,084
    Likes Received:
    1,232
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Columbus,Ga
     
  20. Turk Key

    Turk Key Avatar

    Messages:
    2,561
    Likes Received:
    4,012
    Trophy Points:
    153
    Gender:
    Male
    Actually at this time we cannot drop most things even on our lot. Try laying out your armor, weapon, gold, ore, wood and etc.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.