SPO and SP Offline

I wish I could share your confidence. Been part of too many things that failed not in implementation but in design. Sometimes when you get to the implementation of a "later" component, it's too late. Then hard choices are made and things can go in weird directions. I have a great deal of respect for having a cogent vision and as much design as you can afford before going down the road of implementation. Ultimately, that's what the concerns are.

One real example from this project is scope creep. Things have been added as the project goes along with no idea whether they were originally conceived as part of the design. For example, player owned towns. How far can the release date be pushed back? We shall see.

 

SotA was once announced as the spiritual successor of all Ultima games. A RPG with the possibility of social gaming. At that time SotA should never be a true MMO. As time went by the community got more and more former UO players. Furthermore SotA won an E3 2014 award as Best Indie MMO - yes MMO!


This is a short talk with Richard Garriott. What do you think?

I think the design of SotA isn't engraved in stone at the moment. Perhaps it never was. Maybe R.G. and the devs are uncertain about the different features and their severity. Our questions are not ignored - the team isn't just sure about the further development and this is the reason why we got no answers until now. And if this is true we - the admirers of the single play Ultima games - should continue to be vocal and to convey our concerns.

 

I like this. Is it possible to maybe start a thread where maybe they can write back stories for these companions and submit them to portelarium? I am no expert on the lore and the background of the ultimas, but many of you are and I am sure many can submit really good examples. Just an Idea.

 

Good catch Sir Cabirus!

One of the things you can see in that video is that player-owned towns were added in response to UO guilds who wanted to make sure they could live together in game. There is a lot of pressure from this side of the world. As I've raised before, the time to implement every new feature added has to come either from adding work hours to the budget (new employees) or working within existing staff. If the latter, what else is not being implemented, or will the release date be pushed back? It is a rational fear that features not as yet seen or heard about could be shrinking or removed entirely. The OP's concerns may or may not prove justified, but they are rational.

 

Hi Lord Darkmoon,

For me it's not when, it's how...every single one of your concerns are extremely valid however IMHO your OP is designed to start a forum riot!

It's filled with scary unconfirmed speculation. (Yes I realize the point of your OP is to get this speculation answered definitively, an excellent goal)

Instead of the (slightly) adversarial, disappointed (you have already failed) tone in the OP, I just wish it was setup more as a question and or suggestions to Portalarium thread, for example...

could be changed to...

Can we have a feature in SPO mode that we can change or standardize decorations and buildings while still maintaining the other benefits of SPO mode?
or
Will there be a way to protect SPO players the hideous design choices of other players while still maintaining the other benefits of SPO mode?

That's all I'm trying to say...things can be negative or positive, it's all a matter or perspective.

Also it seems like some people think Portalaium is trying to be secretive and deceptive with their lack of details.

Where I don't believe this at all , I personally believe they just don't talk about features they are not actively working on...and they have told us what they are focusing on right now...

-Balance
-The simulation
-Graphics
-Skills
-Character customization
-The Map (converting to a scene)
-Sandbox elements
-PVP
-Food (nature to nurture)

It's not like they have a huge team where all aspects can be worked on concurrently...I trust them to be able to prioritize tasks and features appropriately. (they've done this before )

I wish many would but please don't mistake my confidence in this project for blind Portalarium faith, where they can do no wrong...

The cloth map was wrong...and it was fixed.
The lack of focus on PVP was wrong...and it was fixed.
Economy and single player will be worked on soon(tm)

For example docdoom77's speculation on companions has me filled with dread...but we have such little information on this subject I just think it's premature to raise the pitchforks.

To me this statement implies they have already failed...

why not?

Portalarium, please provide details as to how you plan to make companions fun, engaging and really have a personality. This is an important feature for many of us and we want companions that integrate into the story and that give us a reason to have a vested interest in their survival and most of all companionship.
Companions need to be at a minimum as good as Ultima7/Baldurs Gate2/DragonAge level of immersion.

Carry on Lord Darkmoon, your goals are noble...I want these questions answered also, I'm just not worried yet. However, if or hopefully not "when" they drop the ball, I've got your back , just like I did with the map issue.

Cheers

 

You make a good point Retro, but a lot of the ideas have already been brought up in other threads, for example companions, with a reasonable tone. Frustrations may be growing. And this is nothing compared to the frustration that was vomited forth regarding PvP.

 

Greetings Avatars! I just wanted to remind everyone to keep the discourse civil and without personal attacks on opinions (or on anything else for that matter)...which this conversation is edging closer to. Providing feedback to the development team is welcome, regardless of if it is positive, negative, supportive, or not supportive of the current implementation. They want it all - provided it is constructive.

If you want to provide suggestions for ways that would make companions valuable to the game, excellent! Discussing the merits of those suggestions is also valuable. But harping on users for expressing those ideas is not warranted and not tolerated. All ideas and suggestions are welcome...provided they do not breach the Forum Rules.

So keep calm and on topic.

 

Maybe this is slightly OT, but I would like to satisfy a craving During the 'overland map war' I was in the other camp - and I'm still a fan of the dropped cloth map Often I thought - in this context - 'Argg - another of Lord_Darkmoon's postings fighting for the 3D map'. Even if the dear Lord_Darkmoon was sometimes a real nagger (in my opinion) I never had a personal resentment against him nor gave it a serious consideration to put the Lord to my ignore list. To be honest - nobody is on my ignore list, but this is another matter And I'm happy about this because I had missed some very good postings and excellent suggestions from Lord_Darkmoon otherwise

And the conclusion is - even if we have different opinions sometimes - this can be a very good community as long as we respect each other. Don't sharing a mind and smart-aleck are different things

Retro's post is a good example and I like his idea to phrase our concerns positive.

 

Thanks
You are absolutely right, my friend. Even if we sometimes have different opinions we are all one community

 

I personally feel that some features of the online/player world might be set back because of the main focus on story and "unique player story experience". Im not a huge fan of storylines and immersive experiences.

I would much prefer the whole world to be open and all the best encounters to be real player experiences. Still good to have a loose story and quests. But i would rather go exploring/tresure hunting, find some wierd monster to fight with friends

 

I still have the question of what is expected from people that are more focused on single player.

If the game launches with 120 hours of main story and an untold amount of side quests. What more is expected? (fictitious example)
The Episode will go on over the course of a year. What single player game offers content for a year?

The term MMO is not retained in SotA but is that because the intent to not be an MMO or the acknowledgement that the current MMOs do not live up to the acronym?

What should be allowed for the persistent world and not included as single player content?

 

@Strothers: I understand of course where you're coming from and from the standpoint of an hardcore Ultima Online player each story piece or even quests from NPCs might lead away from a pure Sandbox experience and if SotA was a pure successor to Ultima Online, this would most probably be the case (but I'm not sure what an immersive experience is, since I'm sure that you want to be immersed in the world).

But since SotA was advertised as a game for the fans not only of UO, but also of the traditional single player Ultima titles, a pure sandbox game won't be sufficient. Don't get me wrong, I like some sandbox titles even in Single Player (like Mount and Blade), but most sandbox games get incredibly boring after some time, when playing alone, since they get repetitive pretty fast. And as we know, many fans of the older titles have funded SotA not because of the MMO elements, but because of the older titles and the story of Lord British and Tracy Hickman (and some of them didn't even play or like Ultima Online because of the differences to the classic titles). And many of those players will probably go for the storylines of the episodes and will leave the game until the next episode is released (I even see this trend in some MMOs).

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One other point, I'm interested in is, what consequences can your actions have. When I look at the older Ultima Titles, your actions did indeed have global consequences (no spoilers here, but Serpent Isle is a wonderful example) and changed the course of the world (or could even destroy it). And for SotA Richard Garriott has stated several times, that your actions may even lead to changes on the world map. My question now is: How will a SPO player experience this actions and can his actions lead to events of a similar scale? How heroic can you feel, when playing alone (or without a powerful guild behind you)? This again is a question towards the presentation of events ingame. And I'm highly interested, in which ways they want the people to experience and take parts in events.

One example of a MMO, where story and story presentation went extremely wrong, is again Lord of the Rings Online, where the story was quite fun, until they decided, that it's better to just run after the fellowship of the ring and don't do heroic things anymore, where you didn't know the outcome. And suddenly, you didn't participate in an epic storyline anymore, where your actions could have surprising consequences, but you more or less tidied up behind the much more important fellowship. It's ridiculous, when you're forced to kill rats and other vermin in cellars, after you killed a Balrog and a Dragon. The worst thing is, when the game prevents you from heroic deeds, because you are not supposed to (there are quests where a group of 10 Orcs raid a farm and a cutscene tells you, that they are too strong for you and such destroyed the farm; and you are not allowed to do anything about it, because the developers want you to do 10 other sidequests first). This was presented horribly, since it took the actions out of your hand. And to be honest, I'm not the biggest fan of cinematics, since I'd rather do the epic stuff myself and not watch it passively (okay, I'll do a new thread about ingame presentation, maybe tomorrow...).

@Ristra: I'm quite sure, that the story will be excellent (I'm reading the book of Tracy Hickman at the moment and like it quite a lot), but it's also important, how the story is presented ingame. And that's, what most of my questions are about (not about the story itself, but the mechanics to present it)

 

You don't think that elements of combat, crafting, etc that they have been working on affect SP as well? All of the things they are working on are also aspects of the single player experience. They are not making an MMO and a single player game separately, where they first do the MMO and then work on the SP, it's all (supposed to be) happening simultaneously.

If I completely ignore what was said in the kickstarter and any offhand responses to direct questions, and simply focus on the updates we've been given during development, I think that I could be forgiven for thinking that this is an MMO with no single player experience whatsoever, because there has been exactly zero discussion of how any of the mechanics they're actively developing will impact the single player experience.

I understand that they need to get the mechanics right for multiplayer, and I understand that the MMO experience will get the most attention at the moment, but SP is important too. For me, and I suspect many others, SP is the most important aspect. And we're not seeing any evidence of any love being thrown towards the SP experience whatsoever.

That is my concern.

 

But in this game you are not the "only" hero - there are many avatars ... its part of the story

 

As I alluded to in my previous post, the single player experience is not just the story. Everything that affects the multiplayer experience? Guess what - it also affects the single player experience. Balance the combat for multiplayer, and you are in danger of ruining the single player combat experience. Rely on multiplayer for economy, and in single player the economy grinds to a halt. These are examples only, and may or may not happen. Perhaps they've even been addressed? Certainly not in any of the updates that I've seen though.

What I want to know is that they have the single player experience firmly in mind, even when they focus on the multiplayer experience. That they have in mind how changes they are making will impact SP. Those are my expectations, which may or may not match those of the person/people you were responding to.

 

Except that the MMO is hurting the potential single player game, for example they openly say you cant be self sufficient, which is the direct opposite of a single player game and yet the "balance" for this would be companions and they are silent on them as well

 

Chris mentioned that he wants to have a discussion concerning the economy - but he would be the one to determine when / and with whom first

As for the game / combat / I do not think it will be an issue - they are tuning PvP first and then PvE (once PvP is done - nothing wrong from a game dev perspective here )

as for the economy - beside all the biases that we all have / we really won't know how an economy will shape out / because rules shape the "field" but the players create the world (unintended consequences / sneaky players / innovative players )

 

I believe the self-sufficiency comment had more to do with the economy than your ability to tackle encounters, and the proposed solution for that is to simply make items more accessible in the single player game, perhaps by adding real loot drops or maybe by stocking vendors with items they won't get in the multiplayer game.

If you're referring to a different comment about self-sufficiency, could you please post the source?

 

I know, im up for a good story. I will enjoy it. But, I'm more of a craft my own experience kind of player instead of letting the game hold my hand from start to finish. If this game was purely "Ultima" I would play it but wouldnt get that excited about it. But as there is player housing/crafting/bit of exploring/trading/bit of PvP, I can look forward to those things more.

 

Certainly - I don't think the story will be you are a "hero" more like you are an olympian (I think I have heard other folk speak of it that way too) - and while technically you are playing "you" is does not mean you can't take on a new persona / nor who is to say that you had not been living there hundreds of years before the events of the main story arch ... I'm just hoping that they can really tie it together in an excellent fashion / so it does not feel like two disjointed games placed side by side