If PvP is neither open and there is no loot, how do we make meaningful PvP.

Really? How about it PKers. Did you horde loot or did you sell it?

 

Yes, as a PKer, I hoard loot. The reason is that I don't win every time, so I need to put on some new gear and try to exact revenge.

This is especially true when a group of anti-PKs team up in town and hunt down us PKs. Sometimes they win, other times we do.

 

I would think it appeared they would either horde it or reduce it back to ingots and make their own gear. I really didn't see much reselling of items.

Very rarely would you see items resold, also for the reason that it isn't fresh... they've been used and who knows how many times they were repaired!

Remember repairing and item took one point of durability off of it permanently. So who wants to buy recycled gear anyway. I think Antalicus' point is a good one.

 

Most of your stuff will get looted when you die in PvE combat. You'll get back to your body and your BFF says, "Bummer man, Pk got your stuff"....then you notice your BFF is incumbered for some reason.

What's the difference what happens to the stuff? You still have to go buy new stuff. That's a good thing for the economy. Not only that; you also lose time farming. The loss of time will slow the games income more than anything else you can think of.

Those of you who just want to farm gold all day uninterrupted are the ones who kill the economy.

 

@Acrylic 300 asked "What?s the difference what happens to the stuff?"

It's a matter of faucets and drains. If the system is adding resources into the game it needs some way to pull them back out again. Decay is one way, hording is another, less predictable way.

 

But you do see how removing full loot is worse when you are relying on decay alone?

BTW how annoying is decay? The only good thing about decay was when all my crap was looted and I thought. Its ok, that junk was well worn.

 

@Antalicus offered: "But you do see how removing full loot is worse when you are relying on decay alone?

I really don't have a horse in this loot debate. I don't loot and I don't PvP with enough frequency to be a PvPer. I'm the one who always gets ganked and has to buy more stuff. I was just concerned for crafters who could be undermined if all that loot was just making its way back onto the market.

Sinks are needed. There are plenty of ways to implement them.

 

@Mugly Wumple
The point I was trying make was: while you're out replacing all you've lost, the game system is no longer adding resources because it interrupts what you are doing.

I'm having a hard time explaining it I guess.

Whatever resource gathering you were doing before you got looted is going to stop while your out spending money to buy new stuff.

Full loot is hands down, the best thing for the economy.

If someone asked you how to get people to stop gathering and start spending? What could you come up with that's better than full loot?

 

@Acrylic 300
I'm not talking about an individual, I'm talking about a game system. It really is like a faucet and drain, if you're not taking resources back out of the game it eventually overflows. You faucet puts in 60 ingots, your drain removes one sword, you put in some logs, you gotta burn a bookcase or watch the carpentry market collapse.

If craftsmen keep making swords and the looters are dumping swords onto the market then eventually the the sink overflows and the market crashes. Hence, the question of hording, since that is effectively a drain.

 

This is why there needs to exceptional quality gear. Just trying to make that exceptional piece with the crafters name stamped on it will bring all those swords back into the crafters resources to be resmelted and what was once a 10 ingot sword is now 5ingots, or maybe less. All this for a name stamp and a few extra percent of durability and damage.

 

"If craftsmen keep making swords and the looters are dumping swords onto the market then eventually the the sink overflows and the market crashes. Hence, the question of hording, since that is effectively a drain."

Looted gear is damaged upon your death, and cannot be repaired. Instead, it can only be sold to NPC vendors for gold, or to player crafters to be smelted back down to ingots. The gear is removed from the game, and needs to be replaced by player crafters.

 

Anyway, we ll found 1 pk for 10 anti-pk .
Dont be afraid about full pvp and full loot.
Fear if u wanna be PK. 95% of the players ll run for getting ur Red Head.

 

@Owain
I really like your idea of low level craftsmen supplying other low level players.

Regarding the faucets and drains, it's not as simple as just smelting the gear. This just pushes the overflow into the ingot market. Think of it as every crafted item, every monster loot item, every farmed resource, every piece of gold has an equivalent "quatloo" value. For every quatloo you put in, you need to remove one if you wish to maintain a balance.

Sure, it's somewhat more complicated than that, but the idea is that most things can be converted to other things, such as ingot > sword > gold > lumber > bookcase > gold > sword > ingot.

 

There's an ingot market? I never sold any of my ingots on my crafter and you had to have high mining or was it blacksmithing to smelt down gear and get a return.

Im sure there are people who sell them but if im crafting a surplus of resources is a good thing, and i would much rather use them to try to create gear and raise my skill.

 

I'm just relaying what I understand about MMO market theory. While my examples may be not be stellar, the idea is that what goes in must come out. If it doesn't then either your economy collapses or the devs spend too much time creating new gold drains, bigger, more powerful things of value, that supplant the stuff they designed last release.

We've all seen the uber weapon replaced by the uber-uber weapon that get replaced by the uber-uber-uber weapon.

 

I think if crafted items are more durable than game items. Then PvP will be more meaningful, if the items can be looted.

If crafted items are nerfed in any way you run the risk of people using vendor trash or naked magery. In a skill based game the best players can sometimes pwn an average player even in the best armor. A player that comes to mind would be the infamous PK, Pantsless.

I wouldn't become to Gung Ho on item decay as a sink. Especially when it comes to crafted items.

Make crafted items nice. Let people horde a few extra sets for PvP. Then as long as they are on a winning streak they can keep on fighting. If they are in a slump they will have to go shopping and make a crafter happy.

This is meaningful PvP. Kind of like drafting decks in Magic the Gathering. It's free if your winning. The difference is, instead of the card sellers getting rich it's crafters. Instead of winners building their card collection, it will be players building their item collection.

 

I think this topic needs a correction. I'm pretty sure the plan as it is now is to have open loot for those who participate in PvP.

 

Okay, a nitpick. Hording doesn't mean I'm saving to it use later, it means I'm gonna hang this on the wall and just look at it. The difference being that the wall hanging is taken out of circulation, it's been tossed into the fires of Mt.Doom. If you save it for use later, that's a sale that a craftsman didn't make and the materials are back into the economy. It's merely been stored in the First Bank of Mt. Doom.

 

@mugly
It's a sale a crafter did make.

If it's like UO there is always the chance of destroying items during repairs.

They will do a good job of balancing it, and as long as there is PvP and full looting everything will be fine.

 

@Mugly Wumple

First: "Regarding the faucets and drains, it?s not as simple as just smelting the gear. This just pushes the overflow into the ingot market."

Make smelted gear return less than is required to make the original article. If a sword requires 10 ingots to make, smelting a sword yields 3 ingots, enough to make smelting worthwhile, but not enough to put miners out of business.

Think of it as a 'green' recycling activity.

Second: My forum-fu is lacking. How do I make @Mugly Wimple appear in orange?