No XP for combat

The current thought is that it will be XP based, and each level gives you a certain number of skill points you can attribute as you wish. They want to remove the grinding elements of the game. Current thinking on crafting is the same type of thing. Both crafting and combat levels are separate leveling systems.

Things could change, but I don't think so at this point. They've developed two trees, Combat, and Crafting. So I suppose one person can use bludgeons to gain skill points and then use them for swords. Then again we need to go to a swords trainer and pay them gold to train us up on swordsmanship. Also If a person is highly skilled in swords and not in bludgeons they will likely use the swords to level, but that doesn't stop a person from using swords then training up magic.

So I think their idea is we get skill points each level, but the actual training is where we get skilled in a particular skill set. I can see that working.

 

Ok, I'm not bound for bed this time, so I have a moment to answer. In my opinion, you are splitting hairs to no discernible purpose. You say that denying xp from combat will not remove the fun. I say that getting that xp is PART of the fun. It's part of knowing that I am progressing. What precise form or name that gain takes is merely a formality of the game, it's growth from practice and exercise. The mechanic used to represent it is irrelevant, as is the name. Real people don't get experience points when they learn and grow, they don't suddenly have little purple numbers pop up over their heads. There are no point totals needed to reach the next level of Lawyer, or Marine. So quibbling over what the artificial mechanic representing growth and learning ultimately is named seems utterly pointless. We are talking about simulating the learning process.

We COULD remove that learning process from combat, and assign it only to story progress. We could also remove valuable loot from combat, we could remove money drops from combat, and we could remove crafting resources from combat. We could remove the graphics from combat, because after all it does take up a huge amount of processing power. We could even remove COMBAT, moving it off to out of the way places where it wouldn't interfere in the story, or even out of the game altogether. Each of these EQUALLY pointless moves would devalue combat, to some degree or another. XP belongs in combat, because combat is an opportunity for growth and learning, just as much as it's an opportunity to die. Time spent in combat SHOULD strengthen combat skills, just as crafting should strengthen crafting skills.

There is no actual POINT to removing XP from combat, except to try to force people to adopt a less combat focused play style. Some quotes that springs to mind... "As soon as you see people as things that can be measured, you find that they don't measure up." "When people are allowed to choose, they choose wrong."

Succinctly put, removing XP from combat does not make SotA a better game.

 

Theres no point ?

I find myself in favor of it, AS A GM... *bad cough* I rarely gave xp for combat anyways... unless you had found something ingenuous or adapted brillantly during said combat.

Players hated me for it...

sooo horribly condescending I'm almost liking it beyond my free will...

 

You could also see it the other way around
Having XP for combat forces you to fight if you want to or not. If you do not want to fight you might not get enough XP to be good enough to do the next quest.

I at least hope that the devs include a system in which it becomes "pointless" to kill the same monsters over and over again. Maybe that you do get next to no XP for killing goblins if you have reached a certain level in order to reduce or even remove grinding. And also that you cannot spend skillpoints at will. If I fight with a sword all the time why should I get better in using a spear or bow or casting a fireball?

 

I'm possibly splitting hairs, this since I find details and other peoples point of view fascinating.
But the purpose is simple, you say you don't want them to remove XP from combat because you love combat.
The further we go down that path it turns out that was not the whole truth, which was the missing piece.
You don't love combat for its own sake, you love combat for the feeling of accomplishment and superiority, as long as the associated rewards go with it. Without the rewards it would detract from your fun in the game.
That makes more sense and I think I now understand your viewpoint better.

Now the point of removing XP from the kill is that a subset of the pledgers find what you find rewarding to be tedious.
So what the game needs is something that caters to both groups so that it encourages sand boxing for both styles.
While still adhering to the mythos of RichardGarriot et al. So unless you can come up with a better system where you'd still have fun while allowing for other play styles you are pretty much scrwd.
Problem right now for your PoV is that RG and the RP base dislikes XP for kills.
Hence my proposal for gaining XP from being in combat not by finishing of something. The idea that you should skill progress as much from one shot kills, as long bloody battle where neither side finish each other off is strange.

Succinctly put removing XP from kills will make SotA a better game, for some.

 

This part I agree with but with only one change. I would say time spent in combat with a worthy foe, "is an opportunity for growth and learning". If you reach a point where you can stand in the middle of an orc horde and let your character automatically swing at them while you head off to the washroom or go make yourself a sandwich, then this isn't "growth" or "learning". This is why I suggested battle with diminishing results. Killing something once, or even the first ten times, you would get full xp for it but from there it would become less until let's say you've killed something a hundred times. Are you really growing or learning anything at that point? At this point you shouldn't be receiving any xp for killing the same creature again. You are so used to it now you might as well be chopping at a log. It's time to go find something different or more difficult to engage in combat with.

Does this make it a better game? It might, it definitely makes it a more realistic game. One suggestion I have though that might make it interesting to keep fighting these monsters, even if the xp is gone, is to have on the main website, scoreboards for each monster type and with who killed how many so that you could compare your rankings with that of other players in the game. An overall board showing all the creatures with the best player against each one could also be presented. This creates competition for those who enjoy the combat and the status and leaves the option of alternative game play for those who do not.

 

See post 30 in this thread. Already mentioned.

I like this.

 

I like the concept so much I built a system around the concept of no XP for the use of any skill, including combat. And it works great in a tabletop game. In an MMO it would be a complete disaster. I think we could agree around the table, but in an MMO I want XP for combat. You even say yourself, "players hated (me for) it."

I assumed this was a given. UO did it, every game I have ever played since UO did it. Is there a game that does not? Is there a game where people are still grinding bunnies to max level? Surely SotA will have some similar dynamic. And I think it is a good solution. It means I don't have to run idiotic missions to advance, but I can't stomp pigeons and max out.

I agree with the theory. The exact implications offer many opportunities for exploits. That is, if I don't XP for axing bunnies anymore, I can just try punching them and all of a sudden combat takes longer and they occasionally get in a hit - so they must be a more worthy foe right? No, XP should be removed entirely based on level difference.

There has been some great discussion here, and it is interesting to see other points of view. However, I still see nothing that sways me that XP (or other terms of advancement) should be removed from combat. Obviously there will be missions that people can run if they don't want to kill things, if they don't like combat. I am all for everyone having a game they can enjoy. But, for me, I want to gain XP for killing MoBs. I see no reason we cannot all enjoy the game without adding or taking anything away from what is already planned.

 

Not quite what I was describing. In the system I suggested I mentioned defeating an enemy X amount of times would result in them no longer offering XP. So based off your example, if you killed 100 bunnies (or pigeons) then you would no longer receive XP from them regardless of how you were hitting them.

We could even add to this by saying that you would need to have 100 kills more to a creature than the amount of times you died to it before xp would no longer be given. So for example if you died to a bunny 32 times but eventually you've managed to kill that bunny 132 times then the bunny would no longer provide you with xp. You could always go back to getting xp from the bunny by dying to it but who would constantly want to die to a bunny in order to gain xp? (The use of 100 is arbitrary and can be set to whatever)

The use of levels is also a method of control and I would accept that if implemented but one I am less fond of it because it means that if you face a low level creature for the first time you gain nothing from it. Killing 100 bunnies does not prepare me for the fact that a pigeon can fly, therefore by fighting the pigeon, I've learned something new. I should receive XP even if it is miniscule amounts for being an easy foe. Once I've killed 100 pigeons though I've become familiar with them and know their ways. I have nothing left to learn and no XP should be awarded. That is my viewpoint.

 

Hey folks,

This is a pretty solid discussion, for the most part, but there's some stuff being said that could, under the right circumstances, steer it into negative territory.

Keep it Virtuous, Avatars.

 

I do understand the good intention behind this.
But does not such a post motivate exactly what you are trying to prevent?

 

That will depend upon the temperament of the individual(s) involved.

 

ok ok I'll shut it up...

I didn't say I didn't give any XP... if a player found a new way to round goblins and kill them in an ingenuous way I would give XP... but I would not give XP for rolling dice.

I'm really anti-roll play and its getting me banned, don't be surprised if I disapear.

Try not to blame me at least... am I the only one thinking its ridiculous to argue with people about the fact they'll get pked over and over if we have roleplay friendly mechanics ?

We're all going to be knights and lords and whatnot... why do people argue as if they will be the new player ? Did any new player asked for defense ? won't it then become part of the game ?

We're all going to know the system by heart, and people's constant whining is getting this title transformed into an anti-roleplay mechanics. Oh yes you'll still see me roleplay, like I did in UO... but it feels empty and without soul.

Not only that it restricts King Gariott's creativity... how often have I watched the videos and he almost feels bad for saying what HE wants ?

HE'S THE KING !

Let him have his "strange" game and let people give their ideas... message goes without inflammatory comments to those concerned.

I'm really, really bitter about all this.

 

I wonder Jivalax Azon if Affinity might be an option. Ok, if we have item affinity, which basically gains skill against what ever it is used for, could we not have a leveling process like that? In addition to the weapon gaining affinity, how about the player gaining affinity also. I suppose it would almost be like building reputation with factions. but on a much smaller individual scale. Sorry just got off work and am tired but I had this thought and had to post it before I forgot about it lol.

Edit:
In addition, it could be really interesting lol. What if the Kobalds hated the Satyrs and you killed many Kobalds giving you a "hated rep with the Kobalds" and the Satyrs started liking you for it hehe.

 

Now this is genius IMO! I like that a great deal. It is reasonable all around. It gives XP where XP is due, and not where it is exploited. I would support this system. Perfect. And truly I know how mean bunnies can be ... I've seen Monty Python ... look at the bones!

Please don't! I love your ideas and what you have to offer. I think there is more we agree about than disagree. We may be on different sides of this one issue, but I suspect we share a common goal. Discussing it here can help us achieve that goal. Any thread people care about can become hot, but it can also yield great results. So far, we're just a little warm.

I like this. And it makes sense to me. It goes a little with what Ravenclaw is saying. If you kill 100 somethings you surely are learning how to kill those things and it most likely could have some effect (faction affiliation?). It could add some interesting aspect to things, even long after you no longer got actual XP for it. Hmm now I am coveting the title "Coney Crusher" with my 2-handed hammer of "Bunny Bashing". Wonder if I can gain lettuce faction?

 

If that can happen, I hope there is a way to become friends with the Kobalds, and the Satyrs without having to kill their enemies. I don't like to choose sides, but if the Kobalds and Satyrs are beings capable of being reasoned with and good relations earned, then hopefully there is another option than becoming a murderer to earn their trust. I don't believe we have to make a compromise between evil vs evil. There is usually a third option that the gypsy's cards don't give us.

 

I know this is very unlikely, but what if a player gets so skilled, or lucky that they stop dying period. Then after a while he will no longer gain experience points from anything because he needs to die to them first.

There is nothing really wrong with this idea, but I remember them saying there could be an xp deficit applied to a person if they died. If they implement this, then maybe you should start gaining XP from everything after you die one time to anything.

In other words I no longer get XP for killing bunnies, dragons, demons, air elementals, and sharks. But later on A bunny kills me. Then maybe one death should reset my XP gain on all monsters again.

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Then again if we can gain XP indefinitely, and it isn't likely we will ever be able to attain all the skills regardless how long we work at it, then why limit XP gains at all? it might take 2 years to gain enough experience points by killing bunnies day and night after you reach a certain level. Then again maybe at really high levels you might need to kill 1000 dragons solo before moving up from level 75 to level 76.

If that's the case then we don't need things to stop giving us XP. Level 75 and level 76 isn't much of a gain, since levels aren't exponentially more powerful. Levels gains would become less and less potent, while taking longer and longer to gain.

 

I would rather that the game provide xp for each kill. Grind if we want to. Why take that away, even if it is not as efficient as questing.

 

I agree, give xp (with diminished returns for fighting the same thing over and over), but I say slow down the spawn rate. If you want to keep killing things to grind you have to keep moving. Everything should respawn at a slow random rate... It may respawn in 20 min, but it also may take 2 hours or more. I also advocate the longer a spawn is left alone tougher things will spawn... Leave the bunnies alone long enough and a jack rabbit will spawn, leave the Jack rabbits alone and a jackalope appears, eventually left alone long enough the white bunny from Monty Python fame lays waste to ALL!

 

Actually, NO. Providing XP for combat does not force anyone to do anything. There are alternate routes to XP, which can be (and in other games usually are) faster. There will always be alternate ways of getting your XP, and removing it from combat won't change that. The difficulty involved in progressing through the game is set by the devs, it will be as hard or as easy as they think it should be.

As for your suggestion of devaluing individual monster kills, I've always found it kinda insulting, like the game has decided I have nothing more to learn. It's possible to keep every muscle in the human body fit and strong by doing pushups. Just pushups. You'll be doing thousands a day, but it works. I am against any game design that seeks to make the players decisions for them.

As for spending xp gained from using a sword to upgrade a bow or spear or fire magick... this has been discussed, ad nauseum, and the devs have stated it won't work that way. It is a moot point, and a red herring. It has nothing to do with including XP as a combat reward.