PK and PVP are NOT the same. -- (Dev) Replied

@UA - "I?m not really comfortable with the whole slider thing to be honest with you. I think some areas should be designated as PVP and others as PVE. What?s the point of playing a crafter on the PVP setting for example?"

Isn't that the whole point of the slider? If you're a crafter with no interest in PvP, you don't set PvP. Seems a no brainer to me. Otherwise, you're suggesting that crafter should be subjected to PvP he's not interested in?

 

Sirinan: the crafter will always depend on other characters for various things. some resources might only be gained through combat or venturing into combat zones, and some of that will involve running into PKs or sharing space with PVP players.

 

to me the purist form of PVP is Dota/LoL . The arena style games. And LoL is the most popular game right now. So clearly people enjoy pvp games.

A significant amount of MMORPG players, really like the idea of RPing as a tavern owner, fisherman, craftsman etc, and don't have to worry about their character not being able to function in that role because they are getting ganked all the time.

PKing as you describe it serves no purpose but to ruin the game for others for your own entertainment. It's sadism. Just as it is an undesirable element in the real world, it is undesired in any social game and why it is largely gone.

I always select PVP servers because I enjoy that, even though about half the time im the victim. I hate that if someone spits at me, makes insults or messes with my gameplay experience that I can't haul off and kill him for being an *******.

I find the biggest challenges in games to be PVE combat. PVP combat is generally not very challenging in any game I've played, part of that is the balance they try to make in game now. the other part is I'm usually well equipped and know my character well, and know the other classes well so I know their weaknesses. I don't find that to be a challenge, and nothing about PKing is a challenge. Your arguments are full of contradictions. If you really believe what you type and aren't just trying to be amusing/get a reaction out of people, then you are insane.

PVE combat is always the most challenging. But it can be if done right, and many online games have challenging PVE combat.

 

Sir Mishri the Wicked: "I find the biggest challenges in games to be PVE combat. PVP combat is generally not very challenging in any game I?ve played, part of that is the balance they try to make in game now. the other part is I?m usually well equipped and know my character well, and know the other classes well so I know their weaknesses. I don?t find that to be a challenge, and nothing about PKing is a challenge."

see you on the battlefield. hope you have good loot.

 

@Sir Mishri the wicked - I'm not sure if you're just joking or i have to say it's the first time i have to disagree with just about everything you said. Trolling?

WoW is still the most popular game, not Dota, LoL or Smite even though they're popular. WoW have PvP but it's a themepark version of it.

PK:s dont ruin games if it is done right. I played a crafter gathering ore in UO after statloss was introduced and i died very seldom, maybe once a week. And it added to the thrill of the game to know that a PK might wander into the spot i was gathering ore at. Never felt the same thrill in any of the themepark games i played. So with a good alignment system and some common sense and preparations UO was a easy game to survive in as a crafter or fisherman.

PK:ing a a playstyle, many roleplayed a evil PK and if done right with harsh consequences they fit right into any MMORPG. I would'nt wanna be without them since they add thrill and a feeling of a wanted unsecureness to a game. And why compare a fantasy online game with real world? You have ettins and orcs in the real world?

Being killed was one of the parts i enjoyed in UO. It challenged me to improve my playerskill so next time i met my killer i would get my revenge.

PvE is very easy and predictable compared to PvP especially in a skilldemanding game as old UO was. The human mind always beat any NPC monster if played skillfully. UO magic system is still the hardest, most skillful and fun magic system ever created. Could take more then 6 months to get even slightly good at it. The best mages had trained many years to get their skills. I still need to find one MMO game that demand alot of individual skills in PvE.

 

@Sir Mishri the Wicked
I know that MOBA games are extremely popular and I love that aspect in "battleground" minigames. But I do find it a bit thin as the end game for an MMORPG.

I enjoy the strategy and metagame associated with castles sieges or something like Eve. You're not just winning for the sake of a victory, you're thinking about ongoing actions which matter in the persistent world, with many paths to victory and economic trade offs.

I don't find PvE to be a challenge at all though. In any game. It might be difficult. Speaking a foreign language is difficult. But not in any way that I enjoy. It also just isn't repeatable. PvP is needed because there's no way to randomize PvE enough to provide for an infinite amount of replay.

I'm not a fan on PK in any case. I can't fault people for using the mechanics that existed in other games, but in designing one from scratch, clearly stolen goods should be tainted in someway so the recovering them brings them to their original owner or that they must be fenced on some black market. Basically there's no loot destruction and everything is instantly laundered...and that causes this chain of stolen goods getting legitimized.

 

@PrimeRib: " I can?t fault people for using the mechanics that existed in other games, but in designing one from scratch, clearly stolen goods should be tainted in someway so the recovering them brings them to their original owner or that they must be fenced on some black market. Basically there?s no loot destruction and everything is instantly laundered?and that causes this chain of stolen goods getting legitimized. "

do you mean stolen (pk loot) goods cannot be sold back to npc vendors for gold or something? or do you mean that non evil players cannot engage in the trade of those goods or be penalized in the trade of those goods? im interested to see what u mean but to be honest i dont think that would effect anything. i use what i loot. if it doesnt fit any of my characters then i swap/trade it for something from another player. i would also sell stuff on a private vendor (black market?) sometimes... i dont see that really changing anything.

it seems to me you are more focused on the items... sota isnt going to be as much item based as a lot of the other games i dont think...

historically in richards games once you are flagged as a criminal your character cannot enter town, cannot use the bank, cannot buy or sell anything from npc's, cannot be healed at shrines or by wandering healers, and normally has some penalty associated with death. there was a bounty system as well where you could place or add to a bounty on a pks head... so at some point there would be a large bounty on a persons head that would cause people to hunt you down and try to redeem your head for gold with a guard.

 

@Lordrex - Aye i would love to see a working bountysystem, to bad they're so easily exploitable. Might work better with the single character system here on SotA. Then again you have the players with many accounts. But it would be alot of fun with some money on the PK:s head and also add to the notorious fame.

 

I like the way SWTOR did PvP with PVP large scale battles instead of catering to the Player Killers of Felucca style. I know we have many no favor the PK style and many who favor the PvE style. I don't see any way to make both happy - thus the SWTOR PVP large scale battle approach.

I am curious to the point to see how RG will balance SotA out so much that I pledged to be part of the developer meetings that will be established.

 

@Sir Mishri the Wicked:

LoL, DotA2, and it's ilk have one glaring difference compared with open world PvP in most MMOs, though: they use a fully consensual PvP format, since the only reason to log at all is to participate in the PvP combat. Non-consensual PvP games are far less popular; the single most played one seems to be EVE, which likely has less than 10% of the concurrent player base of LoL alone.

@Ara:

Actually, judging by the limited data available, LoL has a larger number of concurrent players at all times than WoW, so if you judge popularity by how many players are playing, LoL is more popular than WoW. And in US and Europe DotA2 seems to have also surpassed WoW, though that data is quite a bit more shaky.

As for PKs not ruining games if done right: it's subjective, depending on the specific player. YOU enjoy the added risk, as do some high profile players (Markee Dragon comes to mind); many players don't, and will leave games over it, as interviews with RG, and other persons who worked in UO before Trammel, often clearly state.

Regarding the human mind always beating AIs: only when either the devs make a bad job with the AI or when the AI is intentionally kept simple or nerfed (as is often done; players expect games to be beatable, so if the AI could soundly beat most, if not all, players the game would be a commercial failure). After all, the best chess playing AIs running on an Android phone are already able to play grand masters to a draw or win against them, and in games that depend on reaction speed, perception speed, aim, or other twitch-based responses, AIs have even more advantages.

@PrimeRib:

Star Citizen seems to be going with a system for "stolen" goods similar to what you have described. If I recall correctly, the idea is to make stolen goods only saleable to "fences", who only pay about 40% of what a legitimate merchant would pay for the same good. That percentage is still going to be tuned, BTW.

Something similar would be the case with stolen ships. Stealing a ship requires disabling it completely beforehand, which causes heavy damage, quite expensive to repair, and there should also be costs related with getting a kind of "fake ID" for the ship; the end result is that acquiring a ship by stealing it, and making it fit for travel to the policed parts of the galaxy, should demand about as much effort as a law abiding player farming the credits to legitimately purchase the ship.

The idea is to make character "advancement" happen at the same speed for outlaws and for law abiding players, allowing each individual player to choose which career he prefers, instead of feeling compelled to choose the "best paying" ones.

 

@ara actually, League of Legends topped world of warcraft, they average 12 million players a day. Blizzard stopped announcing player numbers after they peaked at 11 million subscriptions, it is estimated they currently have between 7-9 million.


I called it LoL/Dota PVP.. I don't think we are in any disagreement. PVP is popular. PK in an MMO isn't, some people don't want to engage in it at all. They avoid the pvp servers, and never join a battleground.

Not everyone enjoys the thrill that we do.

 

And for once, it looks like a game is being made that caters to all audiences. Using this new idea from RG of displaying only players that they want to display, so you get the experience you want.

I played a lot of league of legends and did very well at it.. center laning like a boss with Cassiopeia (she is considered very difficult to play well, center lane is also difficult to do well). I eventually got tired of it though.

 

oh, as far as why pve can be more challenging than pvp is because they can be coded that way. you can fight something that has more abilities, different abilities, higher skills, more hps than any other player could have. so it can take all of your ingenuity, timing, gear, and skill to pull off killing it, if ever. Doing PVE content with fewer players than it is supposed to require because you are that good is fulfilling.

PVP you can't have anything different than me, other than your skill and knowledge vs mine. it is generally close to a fair fight or easy for me considering how much time i usually spend on games i really enjoy. or I'm out numbered, and then sometimes still win... (or it's just a slaughter, and hence no fun, depending on the number of people and skill levels).

I like challenges in games I play, I don't seek phat l00tz, or honor, or notoriety... but those things may come naturally. as you defeat challenges.

 

My issue with PvE challenges it they're just impossible to balance. It's either easy or frustrating and stupid. I don't feel any in between, The AI can cheat all it wants and make up more and more silly rules on stacking and jumping.

With another player, you know exactly what it's skills are. You can play that class if you want to. If it can change gravity or do some pbaoe of death so can you. It's not that hard to play a dozen games and then either get ranked in the top 1% or bottom 1% or whatever.

I've done progression raiding. The only relief I get is when I don't have to do the boss anymore. And the relief is barley any different if we killed it, we gave up, or I'm lying dead waiting to see if I'll get carried through it.

 

@Ara: "Aye i would love to see a working bountysystem, to bad they?re so easily exploitable. Might work better with the single character system here on SotA. Then again you have the players with many accounts. But it would be alot of fun with some money on the PK:s head and also add to the notorious fame."

yeah... if someone bounty got really high they usually just had a friend cut their head off to claim the bounty. Back when a castle was 50,000gp there were people with bounties of 100,000gp and thats what they did.