PVP

This isn't a SOLO RPG...this is an MMOish RPG with Single Player Elements.

 

You're not entitled to your own facts, or FAQ's as it were...

 

In your first paragraph I believe you are saying due to prealpha status many portions of the combat system are not in place and this is causing confusion. In that I agree.

As for what I want in a combat system.

1. No rotation building. That will eliminate many bots and those who screw up good games.
2. No mathematical builds that eliminate decisions during combat.
3. Combat is first and foremost about decisions and consequences, action and reaction.
4. Eliminate hardware, low latency and fast reflexes with PvP. (longer heartbeat, pulse, tick)
5. Choices in building skills should force balancing between defense and offense.
6. Ultimate defenses should stagnate ultimate offenses.
7. Thinking during combat. Did you detect a weakness in your opponent? Can you exploit it? Can you trap them into making bad decisions?

This can all be done with the decks forcing quick decision making during combat when combined with block and counter moves. That is, did you deflect my attack, block my attack, or counter attack. What is my next move, if I do A will you do C, and so forth and so on. It just requires a little different out of the box thinking with the card system and Drocis' block and counter ideas.

Far from a theme park game... IMHO my wife who can barely handle a mouse. Cannot remember what the cards are. Has no clue how to evaluate the skill trees. Does not play computer games. Has me slow her mouse down (300dpi ) to do word processing. She can win PvP with a copy of a sword and board or 2h weapon build that I make for her. That, IMHO opinion is a theme park game. At least at this point in time. Which does agree with the fact that most combat elements are not yet in the game. I have high hopes that will go by the wayside soon.

 

And you should be be less toxic in your replies.

But I'll let it slide this time.

You do know that your quote from a FAQ does nothing to diminish what you quoted from me right? IT IS AN MMOish RPG with Single Player Elements. That is also a viewpoint many others have concluded in reviews. It's an opinion, learn to respect it.

 

Your right less toxic would be nice.

 

1. What do you mean by "rotation building"?
2. Min/Max builds are what you are referring to I suppose, and that's just how things are when it comes to games like these, that are attribute based (especially ones that allow use to choose them). But really, in any game I've played, people will gear themselves to have MAX DPS, not everyone will, but the majority who want to make sure that they haven't gimped their character. The problem is that NO system is perfect, and if you don't want to follow the flavor of the month build, then don't. It's always your choice in the end. But, with such an open-ended combat system that is in place at the moment it will be tough to counter those builds unless you are some sneaky ninja with your build and it's uber OP but you don't tell anyone about it.
3. I agree that their should be an element of strategy involved in combat. Maybe that is how things will play out when Sun/Moon Magic come into play during the day/night cycle. Also, it would be nice to see maybe elevation advantage of some sorts? That could add a degree of strategy. Just thinking about things that would fit in the game, not trying to change the system, just trying to improve it and find a compromise that everyone can enjoy. The thing is, not everyone is going to be happy which ever way the devs go with combat/PvP. You can't please everyone
4. The thing is, people will always have better PCs, Internet connection, etc. And yes, maybe the "fairest" way for PvP is a 100% turn based thing, but that would mean they would have to completely redo their combat system and I highly doubt they are. Not saying that they want a twich PvP system either, just saying that fast reflexes should be rewarded because that in essence is strategy/thinking on your feet (in real life, are you going to wait for an opponent to strike you and then expect him to let you hit them?)
5. I totally DISAGREE. Let people going 100% glass cannon, easier for me to Backstab them and kill them faster. Or Let them build 100% tank, and let them going into the front lines. Let them make those choices that fit their play style.
6. Hmm, I can see this, but do we have "ultimate defenses" ? Other than putting points into resistances. But let's say someone summons an Elemental (Fire for this), the other player could summon a Water Elemental to counter that? Or maybe, have a Water Shield glyph of sorts in Water Magic?
7. I like what you're thinking, but again that's just going to be thinking on your feet most of the time.


Flavor of the month builds are not considered Theme Park (because they can change drastically). You told her to build that way, if she didn't want to, she didn't have to, in essence that's Sandbox, having the choice to build however you desire. And I am sure someone will try to quote me and point to a Wiki or some FAQ. But again, I am just simplifying things.

 

QFT, I probably did start it

 

1. Non deck builds where you time out the cooldowns to repeat a series of skills over and over again.
2. Somewhat, it will never be mitigated completely but the degree of influence can be tempered. Current school of thought in most games is to "theme park" games by ease of play or pay to win. I suggest lessening its influence by action reaction in game play. ie the deck system and block and counter
3.I agree one mans junk is another mans treasure.
4. I agree the "tick" of a game is what reduces that impact. It is the tick that makes all MMO's turn based behind the scene.
5. Actually what you said is in agreement. 100% offense should be mitigated by 100% defense. That is they balance each other out. In that way PvP is constantly off balance because you do not know what the other build is.
6. Again PvP becomes interesting as you may or may not be able to counter one persons build while you can counter another persons build.
7.Thanks for the response.

Yeah there is no way to define theme park vs sandbox vs mmo vs mmorpg vs etc... etc... etc....
IMHO theme park is any game that makes most everyone feel warm and fuzzy and does not allow for some level of cream to rise to the top.

Thank you for your admission. Drocis has been a great help to the community and has done many great things. Although I probably should let Drocis speak for him/her self. My apologies for butting in.

 

Anybody have any thoughts about the buff we get for standing still?

However I wish they would let us keep this buff while doing rolls from side to side too. It is nice to have an incentive to stand still to cause people to want to fight in a normal stance because in real life people don't run all over town fighting. lol However instead of just standing still people in real life still make small foot movements and even dodges. So maybe if they allow us to keep the buff if we do a tumble from side to side or backwards while we fight this might encourage people to have a normal fight but not force people to stay standing in one spot (because nobody fights like that either). I'm not saying running around, but making basic foot movments by double taping the WASD keys to make them tumble or side step or whatever. If that doesn't disable the buff then people could fight and still have some movement.

I do like the ability to run around town though. That gives us the chance to avoid warcraft style PvP (stand and do dps). However, if there was incentive like this to stand still great, but allowing people to move a little bit while keeping the buff might make it even more fun, and realistic.


Either that or have some kind of combat footwork that starts in combat mode. It could cause us to take a stance and we can only move one step at a time in any direction while keeping our stance. We move slower during combat unless we double click the W key to break the stance and start running, or hold both mouse buttons to do the same thing. Then instead of a buff for standing still a set time, we can just have the full buff as long as we are in a combat stance. Or maybe that's what these stance skills could ultimately do for us.

 

I thought this would have more impact than it has. It's like the devs are trying anything they can think of to keep all the movement in the game. To me it's obvious that we should expect a penalty to movement while in combat in R14.

 

What if the stances could just change our stance literally? Keep us in that stance till we change our stance to something else? We could have a basic combat stance, and then our stance changes when we click defensive stance ... and clicking another defensive stance card will set us back to normal fighting stance. or something like that?

 

I like the idea of a penalty actually! In combat we should be in a stance. We should have basic foot movment that is balanced and precise. If we start running around we should be penalized because we are no longer fighting in a proper stance. How could a master of a fighting style fight properly if they didn't use the most basic of all techniques... the fighting stance.

EDIT: So I'm more in favor of a penalty while running rather than a bonus for standing still.

 

Even a mage should be penalized for fighting on the run. You've said it before that mages should be standing still to cast a spell. Fizzle is just one disadvantage.

In fact archers with their great range should have to remain steady more than the rest of the people. Just one slight wrong movement and an arrow will miss its target.

EDIT: Yes I also agree with what you said about spells needing greater range too.

 

I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting, but it makes me think of this... (if this is what you're saying, I like it!)

When you enter combat you automatically get put into a LOCKED (read: No movement) stance. If you want to move out of that stance you have to pick a glyph that lets you do that...and this only lasts for a short period of time. Sprint and Dash would be exceptions that let you cover ground quickly.

Some stances might allow for moderate movement (for example you might be able to perform a tactical roll towards or away from someone).

This is just the concept, there are no details to it. So note to anyone that reads this I'm not going to reply post for post with anyone asking me 100 what if questions.

 

Yeah that is kind of what I'm saying. Although i wouldn't say a completely locked (no movement). I would say we could in fact move but it would be small steps while maintaining the form of the stance. Also we could perform the dodge and roll moves.

Although we need the ability to break the stance to flea if we need to. I don't want to wait for a card to do that.

The sprint skills should be treated as breaking the stance as well and put you in a sprint. If you attack while running or sprinting there should be some penalty.

Edit: as with most everything I say there should always be room for exceptions to the rule.

Say they add another skill that can only be executed from a sprint. Like a leaping chop with an axe or another bludgeon which may get a damage bonus for running and jumping, but a minus to attack skill amd defense.


Sent from my Galaxy S5 using Tapatalk.

 

WRONG. Really?! If ONLY for MAGES sure, but to cripple Melee more that would be ridiculous! Making any range crazy more OP. I could see Archers getting SOME penalty, but that would suck for pro Kiting...

 

Pro Kiting?

Kiting to me is not really a strategy to be proud of. In PVE you're just running around like a fool because the AI (and the technology behind the internet is not capable of keeping up with it). Are we just doomed to make games like this, or can we evolve? I personally don't understand what the obsession is with doing everything the same way it's been done in other games. Kiting isn't something anyone should want in a game. It exists only because we haven't been able to get rid of it.

 

I would like to start by saying I did not read all of the comments but I would like to make remarks to the OP.

I also LOVE confusion, it is such a brilliantly simple spell that isn't over powered but in the right hands it can be a great tool.....plus its so....chaotic! I also have seen some hybrid melee using it to toss mages off their game that try to run.

I did not notice any change except for that of fizzle changing so that at all times you got the movement buff/debuff instead of just with staves/wands/bows. It took some time to get used to but I am starting to adapt to it, originally with it just being on weapons mages used I hated it but now I might be alright with it, I would like to see either wands/staves completely reworked or if wands reduced movement penalty and staves increased standing still buff?

I agree completely, I want reagents to be needed or at least a HUGE impact on all combat spells at least if not everything. That being said if they were to do this I think that they should come down in price because things are just too expensive atm.

I will have to completely disagree on this. I think the spells that can be casted while moving "aka instant casts" should have a different penalty, such as reduced damage/higher focus cost/higher fizzle etc. Giving players a "free hit" isn't anything specific to magic they could just use a melee hit instead and it would do the same thing, the issue in my opinion is just balancing the spells.

One hot topic right now is Death Touch, the best solution I have heard is to make the heal effect from it a heal over time. This would keep its usefullness but it wouldn't be an ability you can just spam to win.

50/50 on this one, I do agree that they need to be addressed and some spells need more range but I don't think that all magic should be at extreme ranges. It would give mages more time to combo multiple abilities before a melee had time to do anything, that being said things such as death touch are useless because they are often countered due to interrupts.

This is one thing I see talked about a lot and I haven't played games with "active blocking" really so its hard to say. That being said they have douse in which not only removes fire dots but also applies a fire resistance buff, do you want to see more spells like this....or? Possibly stronger shorter duration abilities?

I personally really like how movement is in PvP, I do like the idea of player collision and would love to see it implemented but not for slowing movement but for fun play. I dislike the idea of huge penalties/buffs for moving/standing still, I would rather see individual spells balanced accordingly, I understand this is more complicated to do but if you make it so nobody wants to move in combat then it gets boring in my opinion.

Again, I haven't played a good active blocking game but one thing I could see as well is possibly increasing the duration of the buff from these abilities. Some of them lasted a good time while others only lasted a couple of seconds, I won't go on too much about this because I am open for trying more stuff in this category.

I also love Blink but have different issues with it. I think the biggest thing is it is WAY to expensive to get to, as a mage I currently could care less about dex and don't want dash...so I have to but too many points into the tree to unlock that ability. What I would rather instead of those options as well is have there be a UI option for "ground target" spells to auto cast to your cursors location if enabled. The way the deck combat is currently designed they can't start having ways of "click this to auto cast this if ready" otherwise it started losing the "random" feel. That being said having to click the random spell then a location can sometimes take too long.

Also from testing I did a couple days into the release you can teleport onto the roofs of any players houses but not on NPC houses. Once I figured that out the spell became that much more useful, another great thing to do is cast confusion then blink behind your target once it wears off for the ultimate....confusion!

Agreed, I though knights grace if nothing less should remove it....possibly purify for healing the crippling wound?

With a good deal of testing Int/Str seem like they are working but will need more balancing as more spells come online.

*waits for Chris to share his almighty knowledge on Dex*

While I see the realistic side of minimum range I also know that it can start making ranged no fun to play, if they can do it in a way that still allows them to be fun I am all for it. I would love to see different types of bows/crossbows have different stats at different ranges but I feel like that would be something I would rather see in episode 2/3. It is a fun and immersive mechanic but I don't think it is something that by itself will draw people in or make them leave.

I could see them planning on doing combos with the offhand attack skill such as those you just said. Maybe they are already planning on it? Who knows! That being said it is pretty gimpy atm but meh we shall see what their plans are!

I don't mind an auto attack but I do agree that they shouldn't interrupt, I do feel that interrupts are too common atm and if auto attacks didn't interrupt then it would come down enough that it would be more balanced.

The only slugs you should be getting from cloth is 2 from chest and 1 from pants which should be removed if you put points into light armor.

To be honest this release I have been enjoying pure mage a LOT, without using death touch I can't win a close range duel that starts with sheathed weapons, that being said if it is an open space or if I can stack ahead of time I can compete with the best of them!

I loved seeing your feedback Drocis and you had some great ideas, don't take this as me trying to put down any of you ideas but rather just a different set of feedback and results from testing.

I also have come to notice over the past month that they are sneaking in a lot of stuff without saying it so I am a lot more hesitant to complain without AMPLE testing, but my number 1 complain at the moment is the damage is too across the board, I can have the same ability hit for 30 one time and 180 the next time....I like that things are random to a point because it makes combat less predictable but some of the spells I feel are a bit too chaotic. I am up for playing it more though because I feel like this guys keep surprising me as long as I give their ideas a shot.

Keep it up Port, you guys are doing an amazing job!

 

Dark Souls 2, imo, is probably the best real time dueling game ever created. It has active blocking. I can't remember if there is player collision or not (I believe it does). It still has a lot of the same problems that all internet games have, latency. If you haven't played it, you should give it a try, it's worth it for the basic experience of competitive pvp with blocking and counter moves.

Movement is also more limited as the character you control has to be ready to dodge, block or parry attacks. This is not what I'm recommending for SOTA however. (when I say "active" I don't mean to this degree) DarkSouls 2 has a very controlled environment and the only technical difference between one player another another is usually just the internet connection. Unlike SOTA no one is trying to load up 500k extra assets (say like if you were fighting in Ardoris).

I'm guessing that Collision is not likely to be a reality for SOTA (and Chris will probably tell us it's too difficult to get right because of the latency issues). Which leaves us with an interesting question...are movements and instants so much fun that most people will enjoy pvp with them in the game? I don't know the answer to that anymore than anyone else does. But I can say this, if all you're looking for in pvp is quick movement and "instant" attacks, why wouldn't you play some other game that gives you that better than SOTA?

To me, this style of play is something that SOTA will never do better than most other games, it will attract players that are not interested in what SOTA is really about (Roleplaying) and it will make PVP NOT FUN for the vast majority of players that feel competitive play is more than just being able to hit buttons quickly. Essentially, having fast twitchy pvp decouples pvp from roleplaying - and that (to me) is a very bad thing.

 

death touch heal over time seems really useless to me unless the beneficial heal over times stack, and why bother since it would eventually build up to doing the same thing. So keep the spell as it is but increase the focus cost, and also don't let it do more damage from stacking (only a mana reduction).